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New Chronology Discussion => Ethiopian Chronology => Topic started by: Cush on July 05, 2005, 01:17:58 PM



Title: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on July 05, 2005, 01:17:58 PM
OK, we have (hopefully) all read the dissertation of Herman L. Hoeh "Compendium World History", where he apparently quotes from Charles Fernand Rey's work "In the Country of the Blue Nile". (If not you can google for it)
So is there any reason to judge these sources reliable?


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on February 27, 2006, 06:39:43 PM
Alright.

Are there ANY sources for a sound lineage of Ethiopian rulers?


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Luc on March 05, 2006, 03:42:53 PM
Is Ethiopia important for history? Nothing significant happened there, except the Axom thing maybe.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on August 11, 2007, 03:00:11 AM
I'm not sure that the Ethiopian King List is accurate at all. I understand that it dates from the time of Ras Tafari Haile Selassie and seems to be heavily influenced by the then-current Egyptological thinking about the placement of various potentates in Nubia/Upper Egypt.

I will garner more information as, unfortunately, I don't have it to hand at present.

Anyway, my first post so hello! I like the look of this site, very ambitious project.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on August 11, 2007, 11:54:49 PM
In fact, I have by now reordered most of this Lineage, and also dismissed parts of it because it is just too unreliable and especially in the very early ages seems to confuse fact and myth.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 04:30:07 PM
As previously stated, I have significant doubts as to the accuracy of the Ethiopian King List (EKL) as it appears in Rey's "In the Country of the Blue Nile", especially from the perspective of the New Chronology (NC).

In the following chart, I seek to demonstrate the concordance of names from the EKL with the earlier part of the list of regal High Priests of Amum at Thebes (HPAs). I also include a Napatan list (unfortunately, I cannot find a source for this list) which may show the ancestry of the Ethiopian 25th Dynasty: -















Ethiopian King ListHigh Priests of AmunNapatan list
Agdazyan Dynasty
43. HerhorHerihorHerihor*
44. Qadamawi WiyankihiPiankhPiankhi I
45. Qadamawi Pinotsem IPinudjem IPainuten I
46. Dagmawi Pinotsem II""
47. MassahertaMasahertaMasakharta
-Djedkhonsuefankh-
48. RamenkopermMenkheperreMenkheperra
-Nesbanebdjed (Smendes)Nesubanebdjed
49. Salsawi Pinotsem IIIPinudjem IIIPainuten II
50. Sabi IVPasebakhaenniut IIISebi
51. Tawasaya Dews--

* indicates King's Son of Kush.

Tawasaya Dews, in the Ethiopian King List, is succeeded by Makeda (the Queen of Sheba). Her son, Menelik, founded a new, "Solomonic" dynasty. More about them later.

The Early High Priests of Amun at Thebes

One major difficulty in accepting the dates given in the EKL is that the characters I have identified above are firmly anchored to the 21st Dynasty.

Herihor

Herihor in the New Chronology is the founder of Rohl's Theban 21st Dynasty. His dates in the NC are 823 to 813. He is firmly linked to the time of Ramesses XI (NC 828-801), in whose 19th year (NC 819) he removed the rebellious Viceroy of Kush, Pinehesy, who had taken control of much of Upper Egypt.

Piankh & Pinudjem

Herihor was succeeded by his son-in-law (or perhaps father-in-law) Piankh. Piankh was in turn succeeded by his son Pinudjem (NC 813-788). Pinudjem married Henttawy, a daughter of Ramesses XI. By the latter part of his reign, Pinudjem was in control of much of Upper Egypt, expanding his sphere of influence at the expence of the Tanite 21st Dynasty (at this time ruled by Psusennes I, believed to be Pinudjem & Henttawy's son).

The change in his power later in his time may account for the appearance of two Pinotsems in succession in the EKL.

The sons of Pinudjem

Pinudjem was succeeded by three of his sons in turn. The power of the HPAs at this time was on the wane, with Masaherta and his ephemeral successor Djedkhonsuefankh likely dying violent deaths at Thebes. Menkheperre (another of Pinudjem's sons with Henttawy) managed to remain in office for a considerable period though with limited power.

Menkheperre was succeeded by a short-reigned son, Nesbanebdjed (Smendes) II and another son Pinudjem II.

Psusennes III

Pasebakhaenniut (Psusennes) III is the last of the HPAs who can be definitively identified with the EKL. He is commonly believed to be identical with Pharaoh Psusennes II. This may account for his appearance in both the Theban (NC 769-765) and Tanite (765-752) branches of the 21st Dynasty.

I believe the name Sabi given in the EKL is a hypochoristicon of this ruler's Egyptian name: -

Pasebakhaenniut


Ethiopia's First "Solomonic" Dynasty and the precursors of the Kushite Pharaohs









Dynasty of MenelikNapatan list
1.Menelik-*
2.Hanyon-*
3.Qadamawi Sera I (Tomai)Aserkamon I
4.Amen Hotep ZagdurAmenkhotep
5.Aksumay RamissuPamses
6.Dagmawi Awseyo Sera IIAserkamon II

*The Napatan king list previously shown continues on past Sebi, with a Pokeamon.

The EKL continues with: -


  • 7. Dagmawi Tawasya II

  • 8. Dagmawi Abralyus Wiyankihi

  • 9. Aksumay Warada Tsahay

  • 10. Kashta Hanyon

  • 11. Dagmawi Sabaka II

  • 12. Nicauta Kandake

  • 13. Tsawi Terhak Warada

  • 14. Erda Amen Awseya

  • 15. Gasiyo Eskikatir

  • 16. Nuatmeawn (Tanautamun)



What is, perhaps, most interesting from a NC perspective is the identifyable names from Dynasty 25. This would support Rohl's reconstruction in that we perhaps see a dual kingship, as Rohl hypothesised for this dynasty to an extent. However, Erda Amen Awseya appears to be the Urdemane of the Assyrian inscriptions who I would identify with Tantamani (appearing here as Nuatmeawn).

Menelik

The traditional date for Menelik seems to be in the late third/early second century BC. As such, his placement in this more remote era would seem to be a late recension aimed at supporting his identification as the son of King Solomon.

However, one cannot help but feel this is symbolic of the coming of the Beta Israel (Falashas) to Ethiopia. These, I would conjecture, came south from the region of Elephantine, where we have Jews communicating with various potentates during the Persian period (if memory serves).

Sera I

Likewise with Sera I. Though his name seems to be an acceptable hypochoristicon of Aserkamon, one cannot help but feel that the issue is being somewhat forced by its usage, apparently in an attempt to identify him with Zerah the Kushite who fought King Asa of Judah at Mareshah and Gerar.

A more traditional Axumite king list


  • Menelik (204-179)

  • Handadyo (179-178) = Hanyon?

  • Auda Amat (178-167)

  • Auseyo (167-164) = Sera II?

  • Tzaue (164-133)

  • Gasyo (133)

  • Mawat (133-125)



This list continues until 915 AD, the last king being one Del Na'od.

Queen Kasiyope

Queen Kasiyope appears in the EKL as the third ruler of the Agdazyan Dynasty. The legendary queen Cassiopeia was the wife of king Cepheus, who does not seem to be in the EKL. The mythological Ethiopia, where the legends take place, appears not to be African Ethiopia but a Phoenician realm.

One Cepheus, interestingly, is given as the son of Belus and Archinoe, which makes him a brother of Danaus. Cepheus and Cassiopeia are the parents of Andromeda, who later married Perseus. Thus, the date for Cepheus and Cassiopeia in the New Chronology would fall around the beginning of the New Kingdom in Egypt.

Da'amot

As a final note, the earliest kingdom of which history has knowledge in the region of Ethiopia is Da'amot (D'mt). This realm is believed to have been in the region of what is now Eritreia and northern Ethiopia, with its capital at Yeha. The Orthodox dates are in the seventh to sixth centuries BC.

A fragmentary account of rulers remains, pieced together here by the helpful editors of Wikipedia: -


  • Mlkn Wʿrn Ḥywt & Queen ʿArky(t)n (contemporary of the Sabaean mukarrib Karib'il Watar)

  • Mkrb, Mlkn Rdʿm & Queen Smʿt
  •  
  • Mkrb, Mlkn Ṣrʿn Rbḥ & Queen Yrʿt (Rbḥ is the son of Wʿrn Ḥywt, "King Ṣrʿn of the tribe YGʿḎ [=Agʿazi, cognate to Ge'ez], mkrb of DʿMT and SB'")

  • Mkrb, Mlkn Ṣrʿn Lmn & Queen ʿAdt (son of Rbḥ, contemporary of the Sabaean mukarrib Sumuhu'alay, "King Ṣrʿn of the tribe YGʿḎ, mkrb of DʿMT and SB'")



I cannot identify any of these rulers with those given in the EKL.

Kind regards,

Graham John :)


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on August 20, 2007, 05:42:33 PM
The contents of my database for the Ethiopian king list is >here< (http://www.history-book.net/repository/eth.html).
Most of it is now set to inactive (lined through) because of unreliable data.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 07:03:39 PM
I can see what you've attempted and it is commendable. I do believe there is some truth in the list, though with a few interpolations in order to fit with Orthodox Chronology Egypt and the Holy Bible.

It may be that, fossilised in the list, there is, preserved through oral tradition, a list of rulers, though I'd locate them for the most part in modern Sudan rather that Ethiopia.

I'm also tempted to place some of the rulers of the Agdazyan Dynasty (of the Posterity of Joktan) in Arabia. Many of the South Arabian tribes, I believe, regard themselves as descendents of Qahtan, who is often identified with Joktan.

I wouldn't attempt to precisely date any of these rulers, though, as, considering the synchronisms with Upper Egypt, there would seem to be many overlaps which, unfortunately, may be unrecoverable.

Kind regards,

Graham John :)


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on August 20, 2007, 07:13:11 PM
The problem with the entire EKL is that I just do not know where it comes from. I have done quite some research but I could not find out what the actual source for the list is (with or without dates). I  have a copy of Rey's book in which he published the list he got from Ras Tafari, but there is no mention from what sources (royal archives or whatever) the list in fact originates. Considerable parts of the list do seem to be simply made up.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 10:10:57 PM
From memory, I seem to recall that the king list (presumably that with a late placement of Menelik 1) dates from the early Solomonid dynasty (from 1270 AD), though much of that dynasty's early history is shrouded in mystery. If it does date from this period, it could be that it was a form of propaganda aimed at proving the Solomonids' right to rule, painting the preceeding dynasty of Zagwe as usurpers. The list as we have it would be a recension, probably 19th century (at the earliest) in origin.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on August 24, 2007, 03:14:54 AM
Regarding my previous post, I believe there are significant doubts about precise dating any Ethiopian monarch prior to the Solomonids from 1270 AD.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on August 24, 2007, 08:41:40 PM
And I suppose it doesn't help that the information available on the web is for the most part provided by Rastafarians themselves, who apparently fail to remain objective on the matter.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on August 24, 2007, 09:58:28 PM
That's very true. I have no problem with them publishing this list as an act of piety - I doubt I'd have come across the document otherwise. I would just appreciate a little more evidence as to its veracity. :)


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on September 16, 2007, 05:59:21 PM
The (incomplete) list of Ethiopian and Kushite Dynasties and their rulers can from now on be found >here< (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3680&sl=2455,1529).


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on September 16, 2007, 11:18:17 PM
Quote from: Cush on September 16, 2007, 05:59:21 PM
The (incomplete) list of Ethiopian and Kushite Dynasties and their rulers can from now on be found >here< (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3680&sl=2455,1529).

Well, I should say that I have excluded all those royal lines that i find unreliable or that are outside the focus of this website (meaning lines that are medieval or modern).
(Tribe of Aram, Solomonic Line, Line of The Christ Sovereigns, Dynasty of Kaleb Until Gedajan, Dynasty from Zagwe, Dynasty of Yekuno Amlak, Dynasty of Lebna Dengel, Dynasty of Gondar, Sovereigns of Abyssinia)


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on October 21, 2007, 09:30:56 PM
While I was messing up my database, I came across this website (http://users.telenet.be/royalnames/nubians.htm).  I have only taken a quick glance yet, but maybe it proves useful for filling some gaps...


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on October 22, 2007, 11:51:59 PM
That's more like it! For the Kerma list, Awawa and Nedjeh I'm not too familiar with, though Antef, Ijibkhentre and Segerseni are, iirc, fixed to terminal 11th/very early 12th Dynasty times.

There's also an "Ary" who may or may not be Alara, attested at Kawa. I wonder what you think - is it worthwhile adding a separate entry? (I'm also wondering if he's the figure behind Ras Tafari's "Aksumay Warada Tsahay"...)


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on October 23, 2007, 12:06:56 AM
Jean says that Kim Ryholt is the source for the 14th Dynasty listing on that website, while for the Kushite king list the books Fontes Historiae Nubiorum I II III and The Kingdom of Kush by Lazlo Torok (?) were used.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on October 23, 2007, 03:36:56 AM
The 14th Dynasty would be of interest to Nubian specialists due to the name of its "first" king. I feel that Rohl's interpretation of his origins is ingenious as, on the standard timeline, it's noteworthy that the only attested king of the dynasty (excluding the "proto 14th" up to and including Sheshi, who some lump in with the 15th) has a name meaning "Nubian" though all evidence points to him ruling a small statelet in the Delta.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on October 23, 2007, 11:11:29 AM
Quote from: theelf29 on October 23, 2007, 03:36:56 AM
The 14th Dynasty would be of interest to Nubian specialists due to the name of its "first" king. I feel that Rohl's interpretation of his origins is ingenious as, on the standard timeline, it's noteworthy that the only attested king of the dynasty (excluding the "proto 14th" up to and including Sheshi, who some lump in with the 15th) has a name meaning "Nubian" though all evidence points to him ruling a small statelet in the Delta.
Doesn't Rohl hint to a mixed descent?


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on October 23, 2007, 05:12:21 PM
Yes - he has Nehesi as the son of Sheshi and the Nubian princess Tauti.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on October 26, 2007, 03:01:51 AM
Quote from: Cush on October 25, 2007, 08:28:26 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on October 23, 2007, 05:15:52 PM
I told you that list was nothing but trouble! ;)
The Cassiopeia part has no chance of being nailed to any specific time frame, I suppose?... because a "Phoenician" realm in the Ethiopia region would fit with the Poen/Punites dwelling on both sides of the Bab-el-Mandab and the southern Erythrean/Red Sea, before they finally moved on to become the Phoenicians of the Mediterranean. What of interest does the mythology tell about the famous queen?


Unfortunately, Cassiopeia was the wife of Cepheus, usually taken as the brother of Danaus and Aegyptus. As such, he would date to the late 17th/early 18th Dynasty time frame.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on October 26, 2007, 11:47:28 AM
Quote from: theelf29 on October 26, 2007, 03:01:51 AM
Unfortunately, Cassiopeia was the wife of Cepheus, usually taken as the brother of Danaus and Aegyptus. As such, he would date to the late 17th/early 18th Dynasty time frame.
Which means that this Cassiopeia is definitely NOT the Kasiyope of the early somewhat fantastical Agdazyan Dynasty (just as you wrote in your post (http://forum.history-book.net/index.php?topic=4.msg121#msg121)), and that the respective part of the Agdazyan Dynasty may in fact be a fabrication.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on October 26, 2007, 08:48:55 PM
Almost certainly so, I'm afraid.

Ooh, new options! :)


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: TuckerReseach on May 27, 2008, 11:17:27 PM
Hello all,

The attached kinglist is according to a book called The Sabbath and Jubilee Cycle, available for download at http://www.yahweh.org/PDF_index2.html.  The text is well-cited, though I don't agree with all of its assertions.






Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on May 28, 2008, 07:11:02 AM
Quote from: TuckerReseach on May 27, 2008, 11:17:27 PM
Hello all,

The attached kinglist is according to a book called The Sabbath and Jubilee Cycle, available for download at http://www.yahweh.org/PDF_index2.html.  The text is well-cited, though I don't agree with all of its assertions.


What are these dates based on? The chart footnotes refer to the Kebra Nagast, but the KN does not contain chronological dates to that precision. However, the Kebra Nagast names a few relative dates:
- Makeda came to Solomon in his 6th and her 5th regnal year = 965 BCE.
- Menyelek came to Solomon in the Solomon's 29th regnal year = 942 BCE.
I have to check the KN again, to see if it gives a reign length for Menyelek.
Of course, the information in the KB lacks confirmation.

(http://www.history-book.net/charts/makeda.png)

Most lists of Ethiopian kings are based on the list in Rey's "In the Country of the Blue Nile", and Ray says he has the list from Haile Selassi himself. Nevertheless, I heavily doubt the accuracy of the list.

PS: Welcome to my forum!!!  ;D


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: TuckerReseach on June 04, 2008, 09:53:52 PM
Attached is a pdf of some select pages from Budge, E. A. Wallis. A History of Ethiopia, Nubia & Abyssinia (According to the Hieroglyphic Inscriptions of Egypt and Nubia, and the Ethiopian Chronicles). London: Methuen, 1928.  In the preface Budge talks a bit about the list from Haile Selassie (Ras Tafari Makonnen) via Rey and In the Country of the Blue Nile.  He later looks at older king lists and decides that they are deficient and full of holes, while the list from Haile Selassie is probably fantastic and corrupted by Egyptian names.  The final conclusion is that it is probably impossible to create a viable Ethiopian kinglist that far before Christ.

N.B. Menelik = Ebna Hakim and all their variants.


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: Cush on June 04, 2008, 11:22:21 PM
Very interesting. I will try to make charts for the respective dynasties. A couple of years ago I had tried to find reliable sources for the EKL, but everything seems to be a mix of pseudo-history and biblical accounts.

Here is a comparison between the overview of dynasties in the book (right) and what's in my database (left). My source was mainly Rey's book (of which I have a copy).
With this new list at hand, I will of course change some of my data.

(http://www.history-book.net/charts/eth_dyns.png)

The line of Habassi is in fact a part of the line of Ori, but I removed the interpolated data at the beginning of the line (see chart (http://www.history-book.net/charts/habassi_hori.png)).
Another major issue in these lists is that there seems to be no distinction between dynasties ruling in Kush and those ruling in the Ethiopian highlands (Axum).


Title: Re: Lineage of Ethiopian Kings and Rulers
Post by: theelf29 on September 21, 2008, 10:27:46 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 04:30:07 PM

  • 7. Dagmawi Tawasya II

  • 8. Dagmawi Abralyus Wiyankihi

  • 9. Aksumay Warada Tsahay

  • 10. Kashta Hanyon

  • 11. Dagmawi Sabaka II

  • 12. Nicauta Kandake

  • 13. Tsawi Terhak Warada

  • 14. Erda Amen Awseya

  • 15. Gasiyo Eskikatir

  • 16. Nuatmeawn (Tanautamun)



I've been wondering whether Erda Amen Awseya is Usermaatre-setepenamun Rudamun.


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