History-Book Forum

New Chronology Discussion => Egyptian and Levantine Chronology => Topic started by: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 07:51:54 PM



Title: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 07:51:54 PM
David Rohl dates the 10th (including the 9th?) Dynasty as follows: -





















PrenomenNomenNC Dates
[Meryibre?]Khety I2018-1973
[lost]1973-1968
Neferkare[unknown]1968-1953
[unknown]Khety II1953-1943
[unknown]Senen[...]1943-1938
[lost]1938-1933
Mery[hathor?]Khety III1933-1925
[unknown]Shed[...]1925-1919
[unknown]H[...]1919-1914
[lost?]1914-1904
[lost]1904-1899
[lost]1899-1892
[lost]1892-1886
[lost]1886-1882
[lost]1882-1876
NebkaureKhety IV1876-1847
Merykare[unknown]1847-1837
[lost]1837-1833


Italics signify the pharaoh of Abraham.

Dynasty 7 and Dynasty 8 would presumably be dated from the end of Nitokerty's reign (2061) to some time after the rise of Dynasty 9/10. The kings listed here were ousted from power by Montuhotep of Dynasty 11.

Kind regards,

Graham John :)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 20, 2007, 10:47:32 PM
Thanks so so much. I've entered the dates in my database (http://www.history-book.net/repository/fip.html). How do you get all this so easily? And how do you make tables for the forum so easily? Do you type all that?


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 11:27:27 PM
Again, it's my trusty "Lost Testament". As for the tables, I generally get a few rows in, then copy them, just adding the information in as I go along.

Unfortunately, TLT doesn't give dates for the Theban 11th Dynasty, which would be very useful.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 20, 2007, 11:44:01 PM
I almost feel that I am exploiting you  ;)
Due to my severe lack of time, this project has been going terribly slow for quite some time now, and now you are speeding it up considerably. I do want to express my deepest gratitude for that to you.  :)

OK, here's the complete dump of my database for all the >Egyptian Dynasties< (http://www.history-book.net/repository/dynasties.html).


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 11:54:15 PM
Now THAT'S a list! Hmmm.... I think that, from the Persian perion onwards, the NC dates will be identical to those used in the OC.

I'll supply dates for the Old Kingdom & EDP if you wish?


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 20, 2007, 11:56:42 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 11:54:15 PM
Now THAT'S a list! Hmmm.... I think that, from the Persian perion onwards, the NC dates will be identical to those used in the OC.

I'll supply dates for the Old Kingdom & EDP if you wish?
Oh I wish that  ;D
I can make an excel file for you from that list, too.... so you don't have to type everything

ok, attached (zipped)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 21, 2007, 12:22:14 AM
In the meantime I was typing out Rohl's take on the Pre/Early Dynastic Period  ::) lol

He seems to have added 40 years to Dynasties 3 & 4.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 22, 2007, 10:35:19 AM
Here is my tentative reconstruction of the 11th Dynasty at Waset: -










Intef "the Great", son of Iku (nomarch in Waset)
Mentuhotep I ("Tepy-a")1974-??
Sehertawy Intef I??-1926
Wahankh Intef II1926-1878
Nakhynebtepnefer Intef III1878-1870
Nebhepetre Mentuhotep II1870-1820
Sankhkare Mentuhotep III1820-1809
Nebtawyre Mentuhotep IV1809-1803


On this reconstruction, Mentuhotep II would've begun his rebellion against the 10th Dynasty in 1857 (reign of Merykare), finally defeating that dynasty and reuniting Egypt in 1833.

Please note this does not take into account any dual kingships or interregena that might have occurred and is not based on anything David Rohl has published bar the dates.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 22, 2007, 02:10:07 PM
But Merykare of the 10th Dyn reigned from 1847 bc to 1837 bc according to the list you posted >earlier< (http://forum.history-book.net/index.php?topic=56.msg128#msg128).

edit: OK, the 10th / 11th /12th Dynasties (=Middle Kingdom) would then look thus:

(http://www.history-book.net/charts/middle_kingdom.png)

edit 2: Here's the >dynasties' list< (http://www.history-book.net/repository/dynasties.html) again. An the excel of it is attached.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 22, 2007, 06:34:14 PM
Oops! Thanks for pointing out my very deliberate ( ;)) mistake. I've got the kings garbled up, rather than a mix-up in the dates as the start of the rebellion is Mentuhotep's 14th year.

I like the chart. Looking at the comparative reign lengths, it might suggest that the 10th Dynasty itself was fraught with internicene strife, assassinations etc.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 22, 2007, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 22, 2007, 06:34:14 PM
Oops! Thanks for pointing out my very deliberate ( ;)) mistake. I've got the kings garbled up, rather than a mix-up in the dates as the start of the rebellion is Mentuhotep's 14th year.
Hmmm... Mentuhotep's 14th year would be 1856 then which is still in Khety's reign. I'll change that later.
Quote from: theelf29 on August 22, 2007, 06:34:14 PM
I like the chart. Looking at the comparative reign lengths, it might suggest that the 10th Dynasty itself was fraught with internicene strife, assassinations etc.
That's what I thought. ;)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 22, 2007, 07:21:18 PM
It'd be interesting to see how the 7th/8th Dynasty/ies would fit into the charts.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 22, 2007, 10:27:54 PM
Indeed.
Right now I am re-programming my generator for the charts.

BTW which books by Rohl do you have? I have A Test of Time, Legend, From Eden to Exile, and The Lords of Avaris. And every now and then I re-read them in order to find more info that may have escaped me in previous reads... :)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 22, 2007, 11:12:16 PM
My collection includes "A Test of Time", "The Lost Testament" & "Lords of Avaris". I did borrow "Legend" from my local library some years ago. I recall reading it around Christmas time. In fact, that may well have been the first book by Rohl that I read.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 23, 2007, 02:32:41 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 22, 2007, 11:12:16 PM
My collection includes "A Test of Time", "The Lost Testament" & "Lords of Avaris". I did borrow "Legend" from my local library some years ago. I recall reading it around Christmas time. In fact, that may well have been the first book by Rohl that I read.
So you'll understand that I am also eager to put some of the Mesopotamian dynasties in here...  ;D
Quote from: Cush on August 22, 2007, 10:27:54 PM
Right now I am re-programming my generator for the charts.
So here is a chart created with the new software...
It has anti-aliased text and events are now displayed (before I had to manually add them in), and this evening I shall make the double-chart working (like the one comparing the 10th and 11th Dynasties)
(http://www.history-book.net/repository/ch_00001273.png)



Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 23, 2007, 06:25:19 PM
Quote from: Cush on August 23, 2007, 02:32:41 PM
So you'll understand that I am also eager to put some of the Mesopotamian dynasties in here... ;D


This sounds like a job for moi! :)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 23, 2007, 06:46:33 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 23, 2007, 06:25:19 PM
This sounds like a job for moi! :)


A job to which I've already made a start (http://forum.history-book.net/index.php?topic=65.0).


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 29, 2007, 10:51:14 PM
Dynasty VII











Netjerikare
Menkare
Neferkare (2)possibly mistake for Wadjkare
Neferkare Nebyson of Pepi 2
Djedkare Shemai
Neferkare Khendu
Merenhor
Neferkaminaka Sneferka?
Nikare (1)
Neferkare Tereru
Neferkahor


Of the kings of this "dynasty", only Neferkare Neby, Neferkamin/Sneferka, Neferkahor and possibly Neferkare 2 (if identified with Wadjkare) are attested outside the Abydos King List.




Dynasty VIII








Abydos King ListTurin CanonOther information
Neferkare PapisnebNeferkare Sheri (i.e. "the younger")
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka AnuNeferkamin
QakareIbipyramid (Saqqara) and graffiti (Nubia)
NeferkaureHor Xai[...]
NeferkauhorKhwiwihepu, Hor Netjerbau. Koptos decrees
Neferirkare





In addition, the following attested kings do not appear on any royal canon: -

  • Sekhemkare

  • Wadjkare (Hor Demedjebtaui)
  • *
  • Iti
  • **
  • Imhotep
  • ***
  • Hotep

  • Khui
  • ****
  • Isu
  • *****
  • Iytenu



*As previously stated, Wadjkare may be one and the same as Neferkare 2 (Dynasty 7). Another theory is that Wadjkare and Demedjebtaui are two separate rulers, with Wadjkare being Demedjebtaui's predecessor, associating the pair with Dynasty 9.
**Iti is mentioned in an inscription at Wadi Hammamat. The inscription tells of one Nikau-Ptah, sent to procure materials for the building of the pyramid "Bau-Iti" (Power of Iti).
***Mentioned on an inscription at Wadi Hammamat, Imhotep is supposed to have raised an expedition involving 2500 people.
****Khui ruled in central Egypt and is believed to have built a "monumental tomb" at Dara.
*****Isu is mentioned in graffiti.

There don't seem to be too many dates flying around for any of this motley crew. Only Neferkare Neby, Qakare Ibi and perhaps Khui seem to have undertaken any significant building work. As such, the whole group are usually squeezed into a 25-35 year period. Rohl, sensibly in my opinion, implies a longer span, perhaps 50 years or more, between the end of Nitokerty's reign (2061) and some time during or after 2018 and the rise of Dynasty(ies?) 9(/10).


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on August 30, 2007, 01:05:58 AM
I will see what other sources I can find. And between Legend and Lost Testament Rohl seems to have pushed back early dynasties by 30 to 40 years.

But I'll be going to bed now... (and tomorrow I will only have little time to be here, but on Friday I am off work)  ;)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on August 30, 2007, 01:32:56 AM
I'd noticed some amendments in Rohl's chronology when I was comparing the dates in TLT with the dates you previously had on the database. Tbh, I doubt Rohl has lent the FIP a great deal of thought over the past few years as his latest project has concentrated more on the SIP. Whether he (or any of his colleagues) will publish anything at a later date on the matter remains to be seen. As for myself, I can only hope more evidence from this enigmatic period awaits discovery under the timeless sands of the Black Land (not bad for this time of night/morning ;D)

Good night. I have a few days off work so I'll try to compile some lists of the various missing SIP dynasties. Again, I'm not confident of assigning any absolute dates, though "Dyn. 14" (Nehesy to, presumably, Shemau/Greater Hyksos) will be pretty easy to give an approximate date to. "Dyn. 16" and earlier "Dyn. 17" may be more difficult. I shall have to scour what's available for any synchronisms.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 05:02:05 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 29, 2007, 10:51:14 PM
Dynasty VII











Netjerikare
Menkare
Neferkare (2)possibly mistake for Wadjkare
Neferkare Nebyson of Pepi 2
Djedkare Shemai
Neferkare Khendu
Merenhor
Neferkaminaka Sneferka?
Nikare (1)
Neferkare Tereru
Neferkahor


Of the kings of this "dynasty", only Neferkare Neby, Neferkamin/Sneferka, Neferkahor and possibly Neferkare 2 (if identified with Wadjkare) are attested outside the Abydos King List.




Dynasty VIII








Abydos King ListTurin CanonOther information
Neferkare PapisnebNeferkare Sheri (i.e. "the younger")
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka AnuNeferkamin
QakareIbipyramid (Saqqara) and graffiti (Nubia)
NeferkaureHor Xai[...]
NeferkauhorKhwiwihepu, Hor Netjerbau. Koptos decrees
Neferirkare





In addition, the following attested kings do not appear on any royal canon: -

  • Sekhemkare

  • Wadjkare (Hor Demedjebtaui)
  • *
  • Iti
  • **
  • Imhotep
  • ***
  • Hotep

  • Khui
  • ****
  • Isu
  • *****
  • Iytenu



*As previously stated, Wadjkare may be one and the same as Neferkare 2 (Dynasty 7). Another theory is that Wadjkare and Demedjebtaui are two separate rulers, with Wadjkare being Demedjebtaui's predecessor, associating the pair with Dynasty 9.
**Iti is mentioned in an inscription at Wadi Hammamat. The inscription tells of one Nikau-Ptah, sent to procure materials for the building of the pyramid "Bau-Iti" (Power of Iti).
***Mentioned on an inscription at Wadi Hammamat, Imhotep is supposed to have raised an expedition involving 2500 people.
****Khui ruled in central Egypt and is believed to have built a "monumental tomb" at Dara.
*****Isu is mentioned in graffiti.

There don't seem to be too many dates flying around for any of this motley crew. Only Neferkare Neby, Qakare Ibi and perhaps Khui seem to have undertaken any significant building work. As such, the whole group are usually squeezed into a 25-35 year period. Rohl, sensibly in my opinion, implies a longer span, perhaps 50 years or more, between the end of Nitokerty's reign (2061) and some time during or after 2018 and the rise of Dynasty(ies?) 9(/10).

My reconstruction of this period would be somewhere along these lines: -


  • Dynasty 7 would run from 2061 to around 2045 at Memphis, followed by the Dynasty 8 kings from the list. Sekhemkare and Iytenu succeed them at Mennefer. Dynasty 8's dates are given below.

  • Wadjkare and Demedjebtaui would preceed Khety 1 and Dynasty 9/10. Dates given below.

  • The other unplaced kings, due to their activities in the Wadi Hammamat, are seen as predecessors of Dynasty 11, i.e. local rulers in the area of Waset.



Dynasty VII











Netjerikarec.2061-2060
Menkarec.2060-2059
Neferkare (2)c.2059-2057
Neferkare Nebyc.2057-2055
Djedkare Shemaic.2055-2054
Neferkare Khenduc.2054-2053
Merenhorc.2053-2052
Neferkaminc.2052-2050
Nikare (1)c.2050-2049
Neferkare Tereruc.2049-2048
Neferkahorc.2048-2045


Dynasty VIII









Neferkare Papisnebc.2045-2041
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka Anuc.2041-2039
Qakare Ibic.2039-2029
Neferkaurec.2029-2028
Neferkauhor Khwiwihepuc.2028-2027
Neferirkarec.2027-2026
Sekhemkarec.2026-2022
Iytenuc.2022-2018


"Proto-Dynasty IX"




Wadjkarec.2026-2022
Hor Demedjebtauic.2022-2018
Meryibre Khety 12018-1973


"Proto-Dynasty XI"






Itic.2015-2005
Imhotepc.2005-1995
Hotepc.1995-1990
Khui (Iku?)c.1990-1980
Intefc.1980-1974


Dates are arbitrary, but could be expanded.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 20, 2007, 07:51:54 PM




















PrenomenNomenNC Dates
[Meryibre?]Khety I2018-1973
[lost]1973-1968
Neferkare[unknown]1968-1953
[unknown]Khety II1953-1943
[unknown]Senen[...]1943-1938
[lost]1938-1933
Mery[hathor?]Khety III1933-1925
[unknown]Shed[...]1925-1919
[unknown]H[...]1919-1914
[lost?]1914-1904
[lost]1904-1899
[lost]1899-1892
[lost]1892-1886
[lost]1886-1882
[lost]1882-1876
NebkaureKhety IV1876-1847
Merykare[unknown]1847-1837
[lost]1837-1833


If one wishes to divide 9 and 10 into separate dynasties, perhaps the death of the Hierakopolitan nomarch Ankhtifi (reigned c.1930-1910) and the resultant expansionist policy of Intef 2 of Thebes could provide just such a juncture. As such: -
























Dynasty 9
Wadjkarec.2026-2022
Demedjebtauic.2022-2018
[Meryibre?]Khety I2018-1973
[lost]1973-1968
Neferkare[unknown]1968-1953
[unknown]Khety II1953-1943
[unknown]Senen[...]1943-1938
[lost]1938-1933
Mery[hathor?]Khety III1933-1925
[unknown]Shed[...]1925-1919
[unknown]H[...]1919-1914
Dynasty 10
[lost?]1914-1904
[lost]1904-1899
[lost]1899-1892
[lost]1892-1886
[lost]1886-1882
[lost]1882-1876
NebkaureKhety IV1876-1847
Merykare[unknown]1847-1837
[lost]1837-1833


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on September 17, 2007, 06:03:08 PM
Wow.  ;D
I will insert the changes/additions to the database when I get home...


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on September 17, 2007, 09:58:17 PM
OK, >here we go< (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3680&sl=1118,1178)...

Now this is a strange looking chart  :o

(http://www.history-book.net/charts/chart_00001262.png)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 10:12:42 PM
lol! That's a bit of a headache, but it's nice to see it all fitting together (relatively ;D) plausably.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on September 17, 2007, 10:21:30 PM
But one has to wonder why the 9th and 10th Dynasties are considered part of the FIP while the 11th Dynasties are considered part of the Middle Kingdom, although they were practically contemporary.

>overview chart< (http://www.history-book.net/charts/egypt_dynasties_double.png)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 11:06:12 PM
Quote from: Cush on September 17, 2007, 10:21:30 PM
But one has to wonder why the 9th and 10th Dynasties are considered part of the FIP while the 11th Dynasties are considered part of the Middle Kingdom, although they were practically contemporary.

I believe the prevailing definition of the "Middle Kingdom" starts with the reunification. The rest of the 11th Dynasty is sometimes crowbarred into the MK as a matter of convenience, though I've seen people separate the 11th into an A (in the Thebaid/Upper Egypt) and B (post-reunifiaction).


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on September 17, 2007, 11:13:15 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 11:06:12 PM
..., though I've seen people separate the 11th into an A (in the Thebaid/Upper Egypt) and B (post-reunifiaction).

You have? (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3680&sl=1178) ;D


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 11:16:23 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 29, 2007, 10:51:14 PM
... Isu is mentioned in graffiti...


... but not by me. I seem to have left Isu out. However, due to a dearth of information, I'm not sure quite where to place him. I'm leaning towards Dynasty 8 or proto-11 (if the latter is the case, he is perhaps an ephemerally-reigning brother of Intef the Elder).


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 11:18:36 PM
Quote from: Cush on September 17, 2007, 11:13:15 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on September 17, 2007, 11:06:12 PM
..., though I've seen people separate the 11th into an A (in the Thebaid/Upper Egypt) and B (post-reunifiaction).

You have? (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3680&sl=1178) ;D

Whoever came up with that division did a great service to Egyptology! ;)


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 26, 2007, 05:00:16 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 29, 2007, 10:51:14 PM
Dynasty VIII





Abydos King ListTurin CanonOther information
Neferkare PapisnebNeferkare Sheri (i.e. "the younger")
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka AnuNeferkamin
QakareIbipyramid (Saqqara) and graffiti (Nubia)



I'm wondering if these first three kings of "Dynasty 8" might not be a duplication in the Turin Canon for three kings tacked on to Dynasty 6: Neferka (sometimes called "the child"), Nefer and Aba.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on September 27, 2007, 12:18:29 AM
Quote from: theelf29 on September 26, 2007, 05:00:16 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 29, 2007, 10:51:14 PM
Dynasty VIII





Abydos King ListTurin CanonOther information
Neferkare PapisnebNeferkare Sheri (i.e. "the younger")
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka AnuNeferkamin
QakareIbipyramid (Saqqara) and graffiti (Nubia)



I'm wondering if these first three kings of "Dynasty 8" might not be a duplication in the Turin Canon for three kings tacked on to Dynasty 6: Neferka (sometimes called "the child"), Nefer and Aba.
The name similarity is indeed striking. Are Neferka, Nefer and Aba kings contemporary to the 6th Dynasty?


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 27, 2007, 05:06:55 PM
Welcome back! ;)

Neferka, Nefer and Aba follow Nitiqreti in the Turin king list (IV, 9-11), followed by 2 kings whose names have been lost (IV, 12 & 13). IV, 14-17 are summations followed by two more lost names (IV , 18 & 19) who are most likely Khety 1 and the unknown second king of Dynasty 9.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on September 27, 2007, 10:49:14 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on September 27, 2007, 05:06:55 PM
Welcome back! ;)
Well, I am still half away. I am working out of town 3 or 4 days a week now, and I am spending a little over tree hours in trains each of these days...  ::) ...and in the evenings my brain is practically dead.
Quote from: theelf29 on September 27, 2007, 05:06:55 PM
Neferka, Nefer and Aba follow Nitiqreti in the Turin king list (IV, 9-11), followed by 2 kings whose names have been lost (IV, 12 & 13). IV, 14-17 are summations followed by two more lost names (IV , 18 & 19) who are most likely Khety 1 and the unknown second king of Dynasty 9.
So these names appear after the official end of the 6th Dynasty? Damn, I need my own copy of the Turin king list...


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on September 28, 2007, 02:23:46 AM
Quote from: Cush on September 27, 2007, 10:49:14 PM
Damn, I need my own copy of the Turin king list...


This (http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html) is what I use. :)

It's my aim over the next month or so to gather all data from the kinglists and place them alongside "archaeologically-attested" monarchs for reference.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on December 24, 2007, 09:40:39 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on September 28, 2007, 02:23:46 AM
Quote from: Cush on September 27, 2007, 10:49:14 PM
Damn, I need my own copy of the Turin king list...


This (http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html) is what I use. :)

It's my aim over the next month or so to gather all data from the kinglists and place them alongside "archaeologically-attested" monarchs for reference.
Good idea. Finding matches and synchronisms is key :)

meanwhile I've added the info from A Test of Time p. 410 to the 12th Dynasty chart.

(http://www.history-book.net/charts/chart_00001267.png)

Unfortunately I couldn't find much reliable information about this "Lamares" (Manetho) and what his egyptian name would be.


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on March 12, 2008, 07:51:33 PM
Quote from: Cush on December 24, 2007, 09:40:39 PM
Unfortunately I couldn't find much reliable information about this "Lamares" (Manetho) and what his egyptian name would be.

I understand that Lamares (or Ameres) is considered to be Amenemhet 3, believed to be a garbled version of his praenomen Nimaatre. I've also seen speculation linking the name with Moeris.


Title: "Dynasty" at Khemenu?
Post by: theelf29 on January 26, 2009, 01:21:06 PM
There is also a minor "dynasty" of nomarchs based at Khemenu (Hermopolis) in the Hare nome (Un) during the FIP and early Middle Kingdom, some of whom seem to have dated events to their own "regnal years".

Here is a very tentative list I've pieced together: -

















NomarchVery approximate dates
Aha 11980-1960
Aha 21960-1940
Djehutynakht 11940-1920
Djehutynakht 21920-1900
Djehutynakht 31900-1880
Ahanakht 11880-1860
Ahanakht 21860-1840
Djehutynakht 41840-1820
Neheri 11820-1800
Kay1800-1780
Djehutynakht 51780-1760
Neheri 21760-1740
(Amenemhet?)1740-1720
Djehutyhotep1720-1690


Title: Re: "Dynasty" at Khemenu?
Post by: theelf29 on January 26, 2009, 01:45:17 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on January 26, 2009, 01:21:06 PM




...1900-1880
Ahanakht 11880-1860
...1840-1820



Ahanakht was "overseer" of the western desert in the time of Neferkare.

Therefore, here's a slightly revised Dynasty 10: -












PrenomenNomenNC Dates
[lost?]1914-1904
[lost]1904-1899
[lost]1899-1892
[lost]1892-1886
[lost]1886-1882
Neferkare?1882-1876
NebkaureKhety IV1876-1847
Merykare[unknown]1847-1837
[lost]1837-1833


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on January 26, 2009, 03:46:42 PM
Quote from: theelf29 on August 29, 2007, 10:51:14 PM
Dynasty VII











Netjerikare
Menkare
Neferkare (2)possibly mistake for Wadjkare
Neferkare Nebyson of Pepi 2
Djedkare Shemai
Neferkare Khendu
Merenhor
Neferkaminaka Sneferka?
Nikare (1)
Neferkare Tereru
Neferkahor



Rohl now has the following for Dynasty VII: -







[lost]2061-2059
Neferkare2059-2055
Nufe2055-2053
Ibi2053-2049
[lost]2049-2047
[lost]2047


Dynasty VIII has "5 kings for 100 years" and runs from 2044-1944, followed immediately by Mentuhotep 1 (1944-1931)

The end of Dynasty 6 has Merenre 2 (2074-2073) and Nitokerty (2073-2062).


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: Cush on January 28, 2009, 10:12:30 PM
Oh, that's what I had in the database for the 7th Dynasty.














Seventh Dynasty of Egypt (http://www.history-book.net/?e=1262)7th Dynasty
2061
-
2045
Netjerikare (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3744)
circa
2061
-
2060
Menkare (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3745)
circa
2060
-
2059
Neferkare (2) (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3746)
circa
2059
-
2057
Neferkare Neby (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3747)
circa
2057
-
2055
Djedkare Shemai (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3748)
circa
2055
-
2054
Neferkare Khendu (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3749)
circa
2054
-
2053
Merenhor (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3750)
circa
2053
-
2052
Neferkamin (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3751)
circa
2052
-
2050
Nikare (1) (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3752)
circa
2050
-
2049
Neferkare Tereru (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3753)
circa
2049
-
2048
Neferkahor (http://www.history-book.net/?e=3754)
circa
2048
-
2045


So the Neferkare in your list would be the Neferkare (2) in the databse?


Title: Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
Post by: theelf29 on January 31, 2009, 03:03:21 AM
Quote from: Cush on January 28, 2009, 10:12:30 PM
So the Neferkare in your list would be the Neferkare (2) in the databse?


More than likely. To my mind, Nufe ("Nefer" on the Turin transcription I used) is likely Neferkare Neby and Ibi is, of course, Qakare.


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