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Author Topic: TIP & Late Period  (Read 25309 times)
Cush
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TIP & Late Period
« on: July 05, 2005, 01:21:13 PM »

Has anyone assembled a lineage or a timeline for the Dynasties 21 through 30 (Third Intermediate Period & Late Period, in NC of course) ?
I am having difficulties putting that all together.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2005, 02:35:58 AM by Cush » Logged
Bantu
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2005, 10:52:49 AM »

ARe there not charts for that all on the internet
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2005, 02:36:24 AM »

Well, I could not find any accurate ones yet.  Sad
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2007, 12:02:40 PM »

I'll try to draft something for you asap. I'm in total agreement in that the TIP is the sticking point. Afaik it seems to be the commonly held view of these dynasties as sequential (including, to an extent, XIX & XX) which necessitates the "Dark Ages" throughout other parts of the world.

It's amazing how those Classical Greeks and Romans managed to forget those centuries of obscurity......  Wink

So far I have this, But I am not too confident about it:

But I just don't know what to do with the 23rd Dyn.
*25th Dynasty
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 09:54:08 PM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2007, 04:05:57 PM »

Looking at the dynastic dates given in "The Lost Testament," Rohl proposes the following: -

Manetho's 23rd Dynasty in the New Chronology
1.Sehetepibenre Pedubast II (25 years)661 to 637 BC
2.Osorkon V (9 years)637 to 629 BC
3.Psammus (10 years)629 to 620 BC

Thus it appears that Rohl sees this dynasty as entirely contemporary with Psamtik od the Saite 26th Dynasty, rising also during the reign of Tantamani of the Nubian 25th.

Rohl also gives the following dates for the ephemeral 24th Dynasty: -

1.Shepsesre Tefnakht I (5 years)716 to 712 BC
2.Wahkare Bakenranef (6 years)710 to 705 BC

Rohl has Iuput I (who's in your 23rd Dynasty) as penultimate king of the 21st Dynasty (Tanite), reigning from 739 to 701 BC. Rudamon he places in the 21st Dynasty (Theban), reigning from 692 to 667 BC.

Hope this helps!

Graham John  Smiley
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2007, 10:01:45 PM »

Having had a further look at your Dynasty 23, I would suggest the following rearrangements (after Rohl, "The Lost Testament"): -

  • Pedubastis 1 - this king seems to belong in the 21st Dynasty (Theban) as the seventh king, between Harsiese & Osorkon III. Rohl gives his dates as 753 to 729 BC.
  • Iuput 1 - penultimate king of the Tanite branch of Dynasty 21. He is preceeded by Psusennes III and succeeded by Shoshenk VI. He reigned from 739 to 701.
  • Osorkon 3 - successor of Pedubastis 1 (21st Theban), reigning from 720 to 692.
  • Shoshenk 6 - successor of Iuput 1 (21st Tanite), from 700 to 644.
  • Takelot 3 - reigned at Thebes alongside Osorkon 3 between 697 and 692.
  • Rudamon - succeeds Osorkon 3 & Takelot 3 in Thebes. Dates are 692-667.
  • Peftjauawybast - I may be wrong but I'm presuming that this is Rohl's "Pedubast II". If so, then he is the first king of Rohl's Manethoian 23rd Dynasty, reigning from 661 to 627.
  • Iuput 2 appeas to be absent from Rohl's king lists.

Sorry I can't be more help on the chart front, but I hope this is of use to you.

Kind regards,

Graham John  Smiley
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2007, 10:17:43 PM »

Thanks a lot.
I am just trying to sort out your info and rearrange the kings.
So "The Lost Testament" does contain information that is not in the other books?
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2007, 11:30:45 PM »

OK, I have altered the dates for the Third Intermediate Period:

Third Intermediate PeriodTIP
842
-
525
· 21st Dynasty DjanetTanis
842
-
644
· · Hedjkheperre Setepenre Nesbanebdjed SmendesSmendes
842
-
817
· · Tjetkheperre Psusenes 1Psusenes 1
817
-
769
· · Usermaatre Meryamun Setepenamun AmenemopetAmenemopetAmenemope, Amenophthis
773
-
765
· · Neferkare AmenemnisuAmenemnisu
769
-
766
· · Usimare Setepenamun Osorkon-sibast 2Osorkon 2
765
-
760
· · Psusennes 2
765
-
752
· · Psuennes 3
752
-
739
· · Iuput 1
739
-
701
· · Shoshenk 6
701
-
644
· 21st Dynasty WasetThebes
823
-
658
· · Hemnetjertepyenamun Siamun HerihorHerihor
823
-
813
· · Khakheperre Setepenamun Pinudjem 1Pinudjem 1
813
-
788
· · Netjerkheperre Setepenamun SiamunSiamun
788
-
769
· · Psusennes 2
769
-
765
· · Heqakheperre Setepenre Shoshenk 2Shoshenk 2
765
-
762
· · Harsiese
762
-
753
· · Usermaatre Setepenamun Peduabstis 1Peduabstis 1Pedibastet, Pedubasst, Petubastis
753
-
729
· · Osorkon 3
720
-
692
· · Takelot 3
697
-
692
· · Rudamon
692
-
667
· · Osorkon 4
667
-
658
· 22nd Dynasty
823
-
701
· · Hedjkheperre Setepenre Shoshenk 1Shoshenk 1Sheshonq
823
-
803
· · Sekhemkheperre Osorkon 1Osorkon 1
803
-
789
· · Usermaatre Setepenre Takelot 1Takelot 1Taqelot
789
-
784
· · Usermaatre Setepenamun Meryamun Osorkon 2Osorkon 2
784
-
760
· · Hedjkheperre Setepenre Meryamun Takelot 2Takelot 2Taqelot
760
-
735
· · Usermaatre Setepenre Shoshenk 3Shoshenk 3Sheshonq
758
-
720
· · Usermaatre Meryamun Shoshenk 4Shoshenk 4Sheshonq
719
-
711
· · Askheperre Shoshenk 5Shoshenk 5Sheshonq
711
-
706
· · Pimay
706
-
701
· 23rd Dynasty
661
-
620
· · Neferkare PeftjauawybastPeftjauawybast
661
-
637
· · Osorkon 5
637
-
629
· · Psammus
629
-
620
· 24th Dynasty
716
-
705
· · Shepsesre Tefnakht 1Tefnakht 1
716
-
712
· · Wahkare BakenranefBakenranef
710
-
705
· 25th Dynasty
720
-
656
· · Piy
720
-
690
· · Shabaka
716
-
702
· · ShabitkoShabataka
702
-
684
· · Taharqa
690
-
664
· · Tanutamani
664
-
656
· 26th Dynasty
664
-
525
· · Psamtik 1
664
-
610
· · Nekau 2Necho, Neko
611
-
596
· · Psamtik 2
596
-
590
· · Apries
589
-
570
· · Ahmose 2
570
-
526
· · Psamtik 3
526
-
525
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 09:37:11 PM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2007, 01:27:03 AM »

I found a list of dynasties in the New Chronology on page 455 of "The Lost Testament". I didn't manage to find my copy of "A Test of Time" - quite a lucky accident that I came across "TLT"!  Smiley With hindsight, I'd regard the lists in "TLT" as abrogating any information from "AToT" as Rohl may well have revised his dates in the interim.

I've attached a list of the major dynasties in and around that period from those charts.

Dynasty 19
Ramsses I (962-961)
Seti I (961-943)
Ramsses II (943-877)
Merenptah (888-875)
Amenmesse (877-873)
Seti II (877-873)
Siptah (873-868)
Twosret (873-865)

Dynasty 20 (A)
Setnakht (865-859)
Ramsses IV-A (859-853)
Ramsses V (853-850)
Ramsses VI (850-844)
Ramsses VII (844-838)
Ramsses VIII (838-836)
Ramsses X (836-832)

Dynasty 20 (B)
Ramsses III (863-832)
Ramsses IV-B (832-830)

Dynasty 20 (C)
Ramsses IX (846-828)
Ramsses XI (828-801)

Dynasty 21 (Tanite)
Smendes (842-817)
Psusennes I (817-769)
Amenemopet (773-765)
Amenemnisu (769-766)
Osorkon II (765-760)
Psusennes II (765-752)
Psusennes III (752-739)
Iuput I (739-701)
Shoshenk VI (700-644)

Dynasty 21 (Thebes)
Herihor (823-813)
Pinudjem I (813-788)
Siamun (788-769)
Psusennes II (769-765)
Shoshenk II (765-762)
Harsiese (762-753)
Pedubast I (753-729)
Osorkon III (720-692)
Takelot III (697-692)
Rudamun (692-667)
Osorkon IV (667-658)

Dynasty 22
Shoshenk I (822-802)
Osorkon I (802-788)
Takelot I (788-784)
Osorkon II (784-760)
Takelot II (760-735)
Shoshenk III (758-720)
Shoshenk IV (719-711)
Shoshenk V (711-706)
Pimay (706-701)

Dynasty 23
Pedubast II (661-637)
Osorkon V (637-629)
Psammus (629-620)

Dynasty 24
Tefnakht (716-715)
Bakenranef (710-705)

Dynasty 25
Alara (769-750)
Kashta (750-721)
Piankhy (720-690)
Shabaka (706-695)
Shabataka (698-685)
Taharka (690-665)
Tantamani (664-657)
One may discount Alara and Kashta as this dynasty seems to have emerged largely during the reign of Piankhy.

I'll try to put something together on the High Priests of Amun at Thebes, who do overlap considerably with the 21st Dynasty. Suffice to say that that list is one of the reasons as to my scepticism of the Ethiopian king list during this period.

If there is anything else I could do to help you clarify the TIP, please feel free to give me a shout!

Kind regards,

Graham John  Smiley
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2007, 10:23:41 AM »

Oh wow, I am in your dept.  Grin
I need to get my hands on TLT...

edit: what are your concerns about the Ethiopian king list? I agree that it is pretty unreliable and I had to make some corrections already and even dismiss most of the earlier parts.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 11:22:39 AM by Cush » Logged
Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2007, 12:51:12 PM »

OK, I have entered your data into my database, and created charts as well: click here
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2007, 01:54:07 PM »

I like the look of the new charts! I'm glad I've been able to help you iron out the difficulties of the TIP in the New Chronology. I'll clarify some of the details when I'm back home later this evening (for example, Rohl's Ramesisu 4a & 4b have different praenomens).

With regards to the Ethiopian King List, I shall be adding my two penneth worth under the relevant heading shortly.

Kind regards,

Graham John  Smiley
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2007, 12:32:36 AM »

(for example, Rohl's Ramesisu 4a & 4b have different praenomens).

They do indeed.

We have: -
  • Hekamaatre-setepenamun Ramesses IV (A) in the 20th Dynasty (A)
  • Usermaatre-setepenamun Ramesses IV (B) in the 20th Dynasty (B)
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2007, 12:38:48 AM »

(for example, Rohl's Ramesisu 4a & 4b have different praenomens).

They do indeed.

We have: -
  • Hekamaatre-setepenamun Ramesses IV (A) in the 20th Dynasty (A)
  • Usermaatre-setepenamun Ramesses IV (B) in the 20th Dynasty (B)
OK, I fixed that. Thanks.
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2007, 04:04:48 PM »

· 26th Dynasty
664
-
525
· · Psamtik 1
664
-
610
· · Nekau 2Necho, Neko
611
-
596
· · Psamtik 2
596
-
590
· · Apries
589
-
570
· · Ahmose 2
570
-
526
· · Psamtik 3
526
-
525

Adding a few predecessors of the 26th Dynasty: -
Ammeris the Nubian
Iribre (or Shepsesre) Tefnakht 2 (Stephinates)c.686-678
Nekauba (Nechepsos)678-672
Menkheperre Nakau 1 (Necho 1)672-664

Psamtik 1 was, I believe (or else claimed to be), great-grandson of Wahkare Bakenranef of Dyn. 24. On the subject of Dyn. 24, there is also a king Padinemti who reigned at Asuyt in opposition to this dynasty.

Ammeris the Nubian is believed to have been a regent appointed by Shabaka after the execution of Bakenranef. Manetho gives him twelve years. Therefore, he could either be 705-694 (with Tefnakht 2 perhaps commencing earlier), 697-686, or any time in between.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 04:10:42 PM by theelf29 » Logged
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