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Author Topic: TIP & Late Period  (Read 28623 times)
Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2007, 12:53:21 AM »

Is this then Rohl's "Osorkon the Elder" ??
Hmmm.... what does DR have to say about Osorkon the Elder?

"Common wisdom" has it that Osorkor or Osorkon "the Elder" ruled after Amenemopet of Dynasty 21. I would've thought that Usimare Setepenamun Osorkon-sibast 2 would've been a more logical Osorkon the Elder, though the titulary doesn't match (Osorkon the Elder's praenomen is Aakheperre Setepenre).

It'd be fascinating if the two were one and the same, though I can find little else out about Dyn. 24's Osorkon in terms of titulary.
Hmmm... I remember that I had one of the Osorkons named "Osorkon the Elder" in my database (I cannot remember which one, though) when I had read ToT. But after Legend and FEtE I dismissed that name for some reason.
I have no "Aakheperre Setepenre" in my database, and who is Usermaatre Setepenamun Meryamun Osorkon 2 (of Dyn22) ? The number of Osorkons and their distribution over numerous (distinct) Dynasties has always troubled me...  Huh

As for what DR really says about "Osorkon the Elder" I would need to look that up....  Sad
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 12:57:23 AM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Here an Osorkon, there an Osorkon....
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2007, 01:03:55 AM »

who is Usermaatre Setepenamun Meryamun Osorkon 2 (of Dyn22) ?
Looking at the dates for the ends of their reigns, I suspect these two may actually be one Osorkon, using slightly different titulary.

The number of Osorkons and their distribution over numerous (distinct) Dynasties has always troubled me... Huh

Yup. I think we're going to have to refer back to our "Rohl manuals" to see if there's any prenomens given for Osorkons 3, 4 & 5 (the latter waaaay down in the 7th century!)
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Cush
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Re: Here an Osorkon, there an Osorkon....
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2007, 06:01:36 PM »

who is Usermaatre Setepenamun Meryamun Osorkon 2 (of Dyn22) ?
Looking at the dates for the ends of their reigns, I suspect these two may actually be one Osorkon, using slightly different titulary.

The number of Osorkons and their distribution over numerous (distinct) Dynasties has always troubled me...  Huh

Yup. I think we're going to have to refer back to our "Rohl manuals" to see if there's any prenomens given for Osorkons 3, 4 & 5 (the latter waaaay down in the 7th century!)
OMG!

So this is the >TIP in my database<, but after looking into Wikipedia to search for prenomens of the Osorkons, I am completely confused, because the sequence of kings is not at all like it is here.
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2007, 06:33:02 PM »

So this is the >TIP in my database<, but after looking into Wikipedia to search for prenomens of the Osorkons, I am completely confused, because the sequence of kings is not at all like it is here.
I've noticed that as well Undecided - Rohl's reconstruction is so drastically different from the OC during this period - especially in his twin Dynasty 21s and in Dynasty 23. Plus there are numerous other personages floating about in a sea of dynasties, never quite belonging to one or the other.

It just goes to show that a lot more work is needed to fully understand this period. However, I aver that Rohl's reconstruction is likely to be more accurate as the OC has yet to dispense with the idea of sequential dynasties, which, when considering the other IPs, doesn't seem that likely.
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2007, 06:40:35 PM »

When checking Wikipedia I have noticed that there is lots of info on the family relations of the kings at issue. I will try to enter those to my database as well, so they may help to clear up some of the chaos.
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2007, 08:26:49 PM »

I'd be wary of the family links in some cases - many are suppositions based upon the correctness of the OC, which the NC would dispute.
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2007, 09:22:39 PM »

I'd be wary of the family links in some cases - many are suppositions based upon the correctness of the OC, which the NC would dispute.
I wonder how Egyptology ever got off the ground...  Cry
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2007, 11:34:17 PM »

I wonder how Egyptology ever got off the ground... Cry
It's not so much getting off the ground that's the problem - it's being so comfortable at 6 miles high and not wanting to change altitude.

Yup. I think we're going to have to refer back to our "Rohl manuals" to see if there's any prenomens given for Osorkons 3, 4 & 5 (the latter waaaay down in the 7th century!)

Oh, wonderful! We have: -

  • Usermaatre Osorkon 3
  • Usermaatre Osorkon 4
  • plain old Osorkon 5.

Makes you wish they'd deposited a bit more into the onomastical fund, doesn't it!? Cry

Though Osorkon the Elder (if we identify him with Osochor) is Usermaatre (!) Osorkon 2 of the 21st Dynasty at Djanet.
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2007, 11:50:53 PM »

I also found Usermaatre Setepenamun Osorkon 3 Siese... but no prenomen for Osorkon 4 anywhere... it seems that kings with that name are somewhat mysterious...  Roll Eyes Huh


OK, I have

Third Intermediate Period
842
-
525
Twenty-first Dynasty of Egypt at DjanetTanis
842
-
644
Usimare Setepenamun Osorkon-sibast 2Osorkon 2
ruled
765
-
760
Twenty-first Dynasty of Egypt at WasetThebes
824
-
658
Usermaatre Setepenamun Osorkon 3 SieseOsorkon 3
720
-
692
Osorkon 4
667
-
658
Twenty-second Dynasty of Egypt
823
-
701
Sekhemkheperre Osorkon 1Osorkon 1
ruled
803
-
789
Usermaatre Setepenamun Meryamun Osorkon 2Osorkon 2
784
-
760
Twenty-fourth Dynasty of Egypt
716
-
705
Osorkon
circa
736
-
716
Twenty-third Dynasty of Egypt
661
-
620
Osorkon 5
637
-
629
and one unassigned "Akheperre Setepenre Osorkon the Elder"
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 11:59:49 PM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2007, 12:50:37 AM »

 Undecided Undecided Undecided Undecided Undecided

As far as melontwisters go, that's a honeydoodler. I'm assuming that both Osorkon 4 and Usermaatre Osorkon 4 are the same individual, though, Osorkon 5, I cannot find anywhere. Rohl seems to link Akheperre Setepenre Osorkon with Osorkon 2 if I'm reading his evidence correctly (or else regards OtE as a minor ruler in the west).
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2007, 01:02:39 AM »

Well, I think the Osorkon (736-716) may be the unassigned "Akheperre Setepenre Osorkon" (with or without "the Elder")...

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 01:08:13 AM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2007, 01:08:28 AM »

About Osorkon 5, I believe Rohl's Dynasty 23 is strictly Manethoian in origin, thus delinking the other rulers that 23 seems to have collected over the years. Interestingly, it seems that Osorkon 5 may be an Egyptian Herakles (though this is quoted by Herman Hoeh, so goodness knows).
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Cush
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2007, 01:18:22 AM »

I must say that I am somewhat disappointed by Rohl, because he has not yet published a complete list of the TIP, although in Test of Time the re-structuring of the TIP has been the essential starting point for the entire NC, um, adventure. I mean, the very credibility of the NC depends on whether or not Rohl can produce a TIP chronology that is comprehensible....
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theelf29
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2007, 01:21:47 AM »

What he's provided is, imho, a decent working hypothesis. I do, however, agree that he needs to codify his findings and clarify a good many issues - especially if he hopes to convince learned scholars in leafy halls of the veracity of the NC. There are too many peripheral figures who may not be adequately accounted for.
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Re: TIP & Late Period
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2007, 10:40:44 PM »

Here's the list of interpolated dates for the Genealogy of Nespaherenhat from Test of Time, page 473

Genealogy of Nespaherenhat-
Roma
circa
970
-
952
Ipuy (a)
circa
952
-
950
Bakhenkhons
circa
950
-
930
Iufenamun
circa
930
-
910
Ipuy (b)
circa
910
-
890
Nesamun
circa
890
-
870
Ankhef
circa
870
-
850
Nespatytawy (a)
circa
850
-
830
Khonskhu
circa
830
-
810
Nespatytawy (b)
circa
810
-
790
Nespaherenhat
circa
790
-
770
Ankhefenkhons
circa
770
-
750
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 11:00:18 PM by Cush » Logged
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