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Author Topic: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period  (Read 43657 times)
Cush
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SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« on: August 20, 2007, 01:56:18 PM »

OK, here we go.
I am in the process of figuring out the dynasties 12 through 18. The SIP is almost as chaotic as the TIP...  Wink
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2007, 05:02:45 PM »

I will check "The Lost Testament" as soon as I am able. I'm pretty sure David Rohl will have published his take on these dynasties in there and, considering that he already had the synchronism between the Israelite Conquest, Sheshai and Sheshi, there may not be too much of a rethink between "TLT" and "Lords of Avaris".

But just as a side note.

Khyan Anak-idbu (Inachus) is the third Greater Hyksos king, preceeded by Salitis and Bnon. I am wondering whether these two could be one and the same as Shaul and Baal-Hanan listed in the Bible amongst the kings of the Edomites.

Shaul

"And Samlah died, and Shaul of Rehoboth by the river reigned in his stead." - Genesis, 36:37.


"Rehoboth by the river" is commonly identified with Rahabah, on the banks of the Euphrates, not far from the confluence with the Khabur.

The Khabur is the region in which the realm of the Mitanni would later emerge so it is conceivable that Shaul of Rehoboth by the river may be one and the same with Caluti of the Umman Manda who followed in the footsteps of Rohl's Anakim, moving southward and becoming overlord of the Edomites as well as founding a new "dynasty" of Shemau at Avaris. This may also explain his nesu bity name, which translates as "[he] who subdues the bow people" (as Sakil-Har). Intriguingly, the "Har" element of this name is a Semitic word meaning "mountain".

Baal-Hanan

"And Saul died, and Baal-hanan the son of Achbor reigned in his stead." - Genesis, 36:38.


Could Achbor conceivably be a Hebraicisation of Khabur? Either way, I believe that Baal-Hanan could be the name behind Bnon/Beon.
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2007, 06:08:49 PM »

Thanks, unfortunately in Lords of Avaris Rohl does not come up with dates for the Greater Hyksos kings.
It seems I really need to get a copy of TLT, but it's not available on amazon....
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 07:37:25 PM »

I'll get as much data from the lists in the book as I can and post them up here, but for now, I'll concentrate on the SIP & its chronological environs: -

The 12th Dynasty in the New Chronology
Amenemhat I1803-1774
Senuseret I1774-1730
Amenemhat II1745-1712
Senuseret II1716-1698
Senuseret III1698-1660
Amenemhat III1678-1634
Amenemhat IV1649-1641
Neferusobek1635-1632

The 13th Dynasty in the New Chronology
Wegaf1632-1629
Sekhemkare1629-1617
(interregunum1616-1611)
Amenemhat V1611-1608
Sehetepibre1608-1605
Iufni1605-1602
Sankhibre1602-1597
Smenkhare1597-1594
Sehetepibre1594-1590
Sewadjkare1590-1586
Nedjem[...]ibre1586-1582
Sobekhotepre1582-1580
Renseneb1580-1579
Hor1579-1574
Sedjef[...]kare1574-1572
Sobekhotep II1572-1568
Khendjer1568-1558
Mermesha1558-1550
Inyotef1550-1548
[...]set1548-1545
Sobekhotep III1545-1543
Neferhotep1543-1533
Sihathor1533-1532
Sobekhotep IV1532-1508
[lost]1508-1506
[lost]1506-1504
Sobekhotep V1504-1500
Iayib1500-1490
Ay1490-1467
Sobekhotep VI1467-1466
Sankhrenesewadjtu1466-1464
Ined1464-1462
Hori1462-1457
Sobekhotep VII1457-1456
[lost]1456-1454
[lost]1454-1453
[lost]1453-1451
[lost]1451-1450
Dudimose1450-1446
Ibi1446-1443
[...]webenre1443-1439

Italics signifies the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

The Greater Hyksos 17th Dynasty
Name in hieroglyphsin ManethoNC Dates
ShalekSalatis/Saites1298-1279
Bebnem?Bnon1279-1255
KhyanApachnan1255-1226
YanassiIannas/Staan1226-1209
Auserre ApopiApophis1209-1195
Asherre KhamudyAssis/Archles1195-1192

Sadly, I cannot find anything on the other dynasties at this time.

Suffice to say that the 14th Dynasty (which, per Rohl, begins with Sheshi rather than Nehesy) would be 1445-1298.

Kind regards,

Graham John Smiley
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2007, 10:33:02 PM »

From what source is that 13th Dynasty list? The dates I currently have in my database (which differ slightly from the dates given in your list) are taken from A Test of Time.

edit: I've entered your 15th Dynasty dates into my database.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 10:58:31 PM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2007, 11:21:58 PM »

The 13th Dynasty dates are from "The Lost Testament" (p.231). I'd put any difference in dates down to David Rohl's fine tuning somewhere along the line.
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2007, 11:49:52 PM »

The 13th Dynasty dates are from "The Lost Testament" (p.231). I'd put any difference in dates down to David Rohl's fine tuning somewhere along the line.
OK, then I will enter those dates to my database...
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 10:42:36 AM »

Here's a tentative (i.e. my own reconstruction) of the terminal 17th Dynasty: -

Sekhemrewahkhaw Rahotep
Sekhemreshedtawy Sobekemsaf 1
Sekhemrewepmaat Intef 6
Nebkheperre Intef 7
Sekhemreherhermaat Intef 8
Sekhemrewadjkhaw Sobekemsaf 21207-1207
Senakhtenre Ta'a (Siamun)1201
Seqenenre Ta'a-qen (Telegonus)1201-1198
Kamose1198-1194

Of course, these dates are tentative and do not take into account any interregena/overlaps.

Kind regards,

Graham John Smiley
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2007, 12:33:38 AM »

18th Dynasty

19th Dynasty

20th Dynasties A=red, B=blue, C=green

« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 12:41:58 AM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2007, 01:14:26 AM »

Looking excellent Smiley Good to see everything sat "side by side" in "Dynasty 20".

Am I remembering correctly that Rohl has Smenkhkare and Nefertiti/Neferneferuaten as the same individual? ("Both" praenomens being, I think, Aakheperure)?

Edit: I may think Aakheperure but it's Ankhkheperure.
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2007, 01:40:16 AM »

Looking excellent Smiley Good to see everything sat "side by side" in "Dynasty 20".

Am I remembering correctly that Rohl has Smenkhkare and Nefertiti/Neferneferuaten as the same individual? ("Both" praenomens being, I think, Aakepherure)?

>Well, that is how I understand the matter.<

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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2007, 01:52:16 AM »

Thanks. I was wondering as there still seems to be a lot of uncertainty as to the details during/after Akhnaton's reign.

The Arzawan link is interesting. What do you base this upon? I wonder if she has a Hittite/Achaian alias.
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2007, 01:59:59 AM »

Rohl writes about her in From Eden To Exile pp 293 + 312, but let me think where I had read about her origin.... <thinking/>

found it: From Eden To Exile p 275

Quote
The latter's queen, Nefertiti, was herself a daughter of the Arzawan king, whilst Akhenaten's second wife, Kiya, was the sister of king Tushratta of Mitanni.
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2007, 02:47:04 AM »

Ah yes. It would seem this contention relates to EA 31, a letter of Amenhotep 3 to a Tahundaraba (likely Tarhuntaradu) of Arzawa containing a marriage agreement.

One or two very interesting possibilities arise if this is the case: -

Firstly, EA 32 is a letter from Tarhuntaradu to Amenhotep 3, stating that Tarhuntaradu had had contact with a certain Labayu and that Tarhuntaradu didn't trust him. Very interesting in light of the NC identification of Labaya. Rather an ambitious foreign policy he had there by the looks of things! Smiley

Secondly, I wonder if it would be possible to see in Tarhuntaradu a certain Anatolian king mentioned in Greek sources as the father of a dynasty that would, generations hence, control the entire Pelopponesus - Tantalos. Of course, one would have to expostulate one or two missing generations (Atreus, ostensibly Tantalos' grandson, dated by Rohl to terminal Ramesses II) but wouldn't it be a tantalising (bad pun I know) hypothesis?

Though Tantalus is usually seen as a son of Zeus and a nymph, Plouto, other variants give his father as Tmolus, son of Sipylos, a king of Lydia (=Lyzawa, =Arzawa??) Tmolus & Sipylos/Sipylus are both mountains in western Anatolia, the latter probably the Hittite Zippasla.
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2007, 02:00:50 AM »

Sekhemrewahkhaw Rahotep
Sekhemreshedtawy Sobekemsaf 1
Sekhemrewepmaat Intef 6
Nebkheperre Intef 7
Sekhemreherhermaat Intef 8
Sekhemrewadjkhaw Sobekemsaf 21207-1207
Senakhtenre Ta'a (Siamun)1201
Seqenenre Ta'a-qen (Telegonus)1201-1198
Kamose1198-1194

Alternatively: -

Nebkheperre Intef 51274-1271
Sekhemrewahkhaw Rahotep1271-1268
Sekhemreshedtawy Sobekemsaf 11268-1252
Sekhemresmentawy Djehuti1252
Sankhenre Mentuhotep 71251
Swadjenre Nibiraw (Nibirierawet) 11250-1231
Neferkare Nibiraw (Nibirierawet) 21231
Semenenre1230
Sueserenre1229-1221
Sekhemrewadjkhaw Sobekemsaf 21221-1214
Sekhemrewepmaat Intef 61214-1204
Nebkheperre Intef 7??
Sekhemreherhermaat Intef 81204
Senakhtenre Ta'a (Siamun)1204-1201
Seqenenre Ta'a-qen (Telegonus)1201-1198
Kamose1198-1194
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