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Author Topic: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period  (Read 44048 times)
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2007, 02:05:53 AM »

The 16th Dynasty seems to comprise of the following kings: -

Heka-Khaswt Anat-Her
Heka-Khaswt Aper-Anat (Weser-Anat)
Heka-Khaswt Semqen
Sokar-Hor
Nebweserre Yamu (Yaam)
Sehaenre Yakobaam
Khaiweserre Aamu
Seneferankhre Pepi (3)
Nebmaatre
Netjer-Nefer Aahetepre
Aanetjerire
Meribre
Nebwankhre
Nikare (2)
[…]kare
Wasa (Wadj[ed])
Qur
Shenes
Bebankh

The first three, titled "Heka-Khaswt", may well have ruled in southern Canaan as opposed to Egypt. I wonder if the use of "Anat" as a theophoric by two of them links them to the mysterious judge Shamgar ben Anat?

Bebankh is possibly one and the same with the 2nd king of Rohl's Greater Hyksos. Also, Sehaenre Yakobaam shares his praenomen with Salatis/Shalek.
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Cush
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SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2007, 08:17:18 PM »

*snip*

EDIT: I copied this from another thread (100th post!)...

16th Dynasty according to Wikipedia
Anat-her
?
-
?
User-anat
?
-
?
Semqen
?
-
?
Zaket
?
-
?
Wasa
?
-
?
Qar
?
-
?
Pepi III
?
-
?
Bebankh
?
-
?
Nebmaatre
?
-
?
Nikare II
?
-
?
Aahotepre
?
-
?
Nubankhre
?
-
?
Nubuserre
?
-
?
Khauserre
?
-
?
Khamure
?
-
?
Jacob-Baal
?
-
?
YakbamSekkhaenre Yakbam
?
-
?
Yoam
?
-
?
Amu
?
-
?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 02:32:54 AM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2007, 08:29:15 PM »

14th Dynasty
Phouka.comNarmer.plDates
Sekhaenre Yaqbim1445-??
Nubwoserre Ya’ammu
Khawoserre Qareh
Ahotepre Ammu
Meribre Sheshi (Sheshai)
Aasehre NehesiAasehre Nehesi
KhakherewreKhatire
NebefawreNebfawre
SehebreSehebre
MerdjefareMeridjefare
Sewadjkare (3)/SekheperenreSewadjkare (2)
NebdjefareNebdjefare
WebenreUbenre
[…]djefare[…]djefare
[…]webenre[…]wbenre
Awibre (2)Awtibre
HeribreHerwibre
NebsenreNebsenre
SekhepenreSekheperenre
DjedkherewreDjedkherure
Sankhibre (2)Sankhibre
Nefertum[…]reKanefertumre
Sekhem[…]reSekhem[…]re
KakemureKakemetre
NeferibreNeferibre
I[…]reA[…](?)
KhakareKha[…]re
AkareAnkhkare
Semenenre Hapu[…]Semen[…]re
Djedkare ‘AnatiDjed[…]re
[…]kare Babnumabsent
Senefer[…]reSenefer[…]re
Men[…]re/Semen[…]reMenibre
absentDjed[…]re
Ink[…]Inek[…]
’A[…]I[…]
Apepi (1)Ip[…]
Hebi
Aped
Hepw
Shemsu
Meni[…]
Urkai
[…]kare
[…]kare
Hepu[…]
[…]annati
Bebnem
Iuf[…]
Seth (2)
Sinu
Hor (3)
Nibef
Penestensepti
Kherhemwetshepsut
Khuihemwet
Nuya
Sheneh
Shenshek
Wazad
Khamure
Merwoserre/Merweserre Yaqub-Harfl. c.1300?
Yakareb
Maare Sobekhotep (9)
Shamuqenu
Aper-Anati
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 10:24:33 PM »

Is this really just one dynasty? Or should it be split? They didn't all rule from the same capital, did they? The Hyksos never ruled over the western Delta, iirr, so who are the kings ruling there?
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2007, 11:30:25 PM »

Tbph, I'm not sure whether we can accurately know what's going on at this time. It's likely there were concurrent kingships and varying levels of control over regions such as the western Delta.

It doesn't help in that quite a number (if not most) of the kings listed are unattested in the historical record, thus meaning relationships can only be pieced together with the utmost care.

Phouka.com seems to suggest that the kings at the bottom of the list I produced cannot accurately be placed in the dynastic sequence elsewhere.
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2007, 11:53:45 PM »

"Lords of Avaris" (p. 87) has a table of SIP dynasties alongside corresponding strata from Tell ed-Daba and the archaeological periods.

The 13th Dynasty is succeeded by the 14th Dynasty (Lesser Hyksos) and, a little later (seemingly just before or at the time of Sheshi) by a 15th Dynasty of Thebes. Yakub-Har would seem to be Rohl's candidate for the terminal king of the Lesser Hyksos (hence my date).

The 15th Dynasty is succeeded by the 16th Dynasty at Thebes - this being the dynasty of Seqenenre Ta'a and Kamose.

I would offer the following dates for these dynasties: -

13th Dynasty (Itj-tawy & Memphis)1632-1439?
14th Dynasty Lesser Hyksos1445-1298
15th Dynasty (Thebes)1439?-1274
16th Dynasty (Thebes)1274-1194
17th Dynasty Greater Hyksos1298-1181

Now if only we could find out who exactly these "15th Dynasty" chaps are.....
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2007, 12:07:24 AM »

"Lords of Avaris" (p. 87) has a table of SIP dynasties alongside corresponding strata from Tell ed-Daba and the archaeological periods.

The 13th Dynasty is succeeded by the 14th Dynasty (Lesser Hyksos) and, a little later (seemingly just before or at the time of Sheshi) by a 15th Dynasty of Thebes. Yakub-Har would seem to be Rohl's candidate for the terminal king of the Lesser Hyksos (hence my date).

The 15th Dynasty is succeeded by the 16th Dynasty at Thebes - this being the dynasty of Seqenenre Ta'a and Kamose.

I would offer the following dates for these dynasties: -

13th Dynasty (Itj-tawy & Memphis)1632-1439?
14th Dynasty Lesser Hyksos1445-1298
15th Dynasty (Thebes)1439?-1274
16th Dynasty (Thebes)1274-1194
17th Dynasty Greater Hyksos1298-1181

Now if only we could find out who exactly these "15th Dynasty" chaps are.....

Oh, I thought the 17th Dynasty was that of Taa and Kamose and Ahhotep ruling in Thebes, which is in fact the same as the following 18th Dynasty. And the 15th Dynasty is the Greater Hyksos Dynasty, with Inachus, Yanassi, Apapi, and Khamudi....
In fact, I really think Rohl has the chart on page 87 mixed up. I think, it also contradicts the text. I have to re-read that chapter.


Second Intermediate PeriodSIP
1632
-
1194
· 13th Dynasty A (Itj-Tawy, Auaris)
1632
-
1545
· 13th Dynasty B (Itj-Tawy, Mennefer)
1545
-
1439
· Lesser Hyksos (Eastern Delta, Philistia, Khaset/Xois)14th Dynasty
1439
-
1298
· Greater Hyksos (Auaris)15th Dynasty
1298
-
1192
· · ShalekSakil-har, Salitis
1298
-
1279
· · BnonBebnem?
1279
-
1255
· · Anak-idbu KhyanKhyanInachus, Apachnan
1255
-
1226
· · YanassiIannas, Staan
1266
-
1209
· · Auserre ApepiApepiApophis, Epaphus
1209
-
1195
· · Asehre KhamudiKhamudiAssis, Archles
1195
-
1192
· 16th Dynasty-
· 17th Dynasty (Thebes)
1250
-
1194
· · Sekhemrewahkhaw RahotepRahotep-
· · Sekhemreshedtawy Sobekemsaf 1Sobekemsaf 1-
· · Sekhemrewepmaat Intef 6Intef 6-
· · Nebkheperre Intef 7Intef 7-
· · Sekhemreherhermaat Intef 8Intef 8-
· · Sekhemrewadjkhaw Sobekemsaf 2Sobekemsaf 2
1207
-
1201
· · Senakhtenre TaaTaa ITa'a, Siamun
1201
-
· · Seqenenre Taa-kenTaa IITa'a-qen, Tela-ken, Telegonus
1201
-
1198
· · Kamose
1198
-
1194
· · AhhotepYa-hotep, Ia-hotep, Io
1194
-
1180

I really am confused now. And I am almost sure that the conventional 14th Dynasty should be divided into a number of distinct different lines, as I see no connection between the line of Sheshi and that of (native/Libyan?) rulers that would have their petty realms in the western Delta as well as in the Nile valley south of maybe Mennefer or Itj-Tawy...  Huh

« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 12:35:20 PM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2007, 01:31:07 AM »

I'd be tempted to agree with you. Rohl has Sheshi ruling from southern Canaan, does he not? This could link him with Heka-Khaswt Anat-Her, Heka-Khaswt Aper-Anat (Weser-Anat) and Heka-Khaswt Semqen (the last two likely the Aper-Anati and Shamuqenu tacked onto the 14th Dynasty).
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2007, 01:55:05 PM »

I'd be tempted to agree with you. Rohl has Sheshi ruling from southern Canaan, does he not? This could link him with Heka-Khaswt Anat-Her, Heka-Khaswt Aper-Anat (Weser-Anat) and Heka-Khaswt Semqen (the last two likely the Aper-Anati and Shamuqenu tacked onto the 14th Dynasty).
I agree. There is also the issue of the way that the 13th Dynasty actually collapsed. During the time that the Lesser Hyksos expanded their rule over the eastern Delta, the remnant of the 13thy Dynasty would still have ruled at Itj-Tawy for quite some time even after the events surrounding Dudimose, his two immediate successors, and the leaving of the Israelites. It is also very likely that some Nomarchs would have seized the moment to set up their own little independent areas of rule in the Faiyum and the middle/upper Nile valley (including the precursor to the 17th Dynasty at Waset) as well as in the western Delta, which (to my knowledge) never came under direct rule by any Hyksos (but maybe intermarriage).
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2007, 05:28:56 PM »

Unfortunately, we don't appear to have any definite list of names preserved that I can see.
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2007, 11:23:40 PM »

Unfortunately, we don't appear to have any definite list of names preserved that I can see.
There are no king-lists in any form at all? Where do the lists that we have come from?
First of all, it should be determined where exactly, i.e. in which area of Egypt, the respective king ruled (well, if there is such information at all). I'll see what else I can find on the 14th and 16th Dynasties.
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2007, 02:02:58 AM »

Most of the kings we have come from the Turin Canon and Abydos King List. However, many of these rulers are unattested thus far outside of the lists and there are other people who used cartouches who aren't named on either list.

My current thinking is that attempting to assign dates and such for these periods is likely to be futile. I've asked about the FIP and SIP on the New Chronology group - maybe someone there can enlighten us.
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2007, 12:15:24 AM »

I've been searching the web a little, but unfortunately the info i found was less than you have already posted.
So maybe we should just leave it at that for now and be patient to wait for what the future will bring...  Wink
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2007, 01:48:35 AM »

That's the best idea. I'll see what comes up on the NC group, though I'm not overly hopeful of clarifying any structure. I'm reasonably confident of my provisional dates for the time being. I'm just wondering if Rohl's Theban 15th Dynasty might include kings currently ascribed to the 14th/16th.
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2007, 12:37:45 PM »

That's the best idea. I'll see what comes up on the NC group, though I'm not overly hopeful of clarifying any structure. I'm reasonably confident of my provisional dates for the time being. I'm just wondering if Rohl's Theban 15th Dynasty might include kings currently ascribed to the 14th/16th.
I am almost sure about that. When the (early) Hyksos extended their rule over the northern part of Egypt that was a gradual process, since they did not arrive with an overwhelmingly large army. So there may have been many contemporary lines of petty state rulers (as any nomarch with sufficient power would have set up his own local realm). And in such a time when there was a multitude of rulers who claimed kingship the chaos in the records is understandable.
BTW isn't the 15th Dynasty the Greater Hyksos Dynasty that ruled from Auaris?

« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 02:58:39 PM by Cush » Logged
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