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Author Topic: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period  (Read 42986 times)
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2007, 01:38:43 PM »

The amount of NC data you have shared with me is unbelievable. You have nothing to apologise for. Wink

Most of it is very approximate due to a lack of precise information, but it all helps to make the case. After all, as the Rees Axiom states, "it is not what is in a revision that will ultimately cause it to fail, but what is left out".

Btw, I am still thinking about a way to put these dynastic lists in a more prominent spot on the website.

What sort of idea do you have?

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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2007, 04:40:48 PM »

What sort of idea do you have?
none yet Sad
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2007, 03:33:08 AM »

14th Dynasty
Phouka.comNarmer.plDates
Ink[…]Inek[…]
’A[…]I[…]
Apepi (1)Ip[…]


Rohl ("Lords of Avaris", page 76) places these three (preceeded by two lost names) prior to Khamudy of the Greater Hyksos.

[...]- Line IX:14
Dual King [...]- Line IX:15
Dual King Anak[...]- Line IX:16
Dual King Ia[...]- Line IX:17
Dual King Ap[...]- Line IX:18
[...] Khamudy- Line IX:19
6 [heka]-khasut for 100[+x years]- Line IX:20
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2007, 11:12:20 AM »

14th Dynasty
Phouka.comNarmer.plDates
Ink[…]Inek[…]
’A[…]I[…]
Apepi (1)Ip[…]


Rohl ("Lords of Avaris", page 76) places these three (preceeded by two lost names) prior to Khamudy of the Greater Hyksos.

[...]- Line IX:14
Dual King [...]- Line IX:15
Dual King Anak[...]- Line IX:16
Dual King Ia[...]- Line IX:17
Dual King Ap[...]- Line IX:18
[...] Khamudy- Line IX:19
6 [heka]-khasut for 100[+x years]- Line IX:20
On page 77 he tries to fill the gaps

· ShalekSakil-har, Salitis
1298
-
1279
· BnonBebnem?
1279
-
1255
· Anak-idbu KhyanKhyanInachus, Apachnan
1255
-
1226
· YanassiIannas, Staan
1266
-
1209
· Auserre ApepiApepiApophis, Epaphus
1209
-
1195
· Asehre KhamudiKhamudiAssis, Archles
1195
-
1192
that would result to 6 heka-khasut for 106 years

Should the fragments of these names that also appear in the Lesser Hyksos Dynasty as kings be removed?

Djedkare ‘Anati            
[...]kare Babnum            
Senefer[...]re            
Men[...]re/Semen[...]re            
Djed[...]re            
Ink[...]            
’A[...]            
Apepi (1)

>SIP<
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 11:21:37 AM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2007, 03:41:16 PM »

· ShalekSakil-har, Salitis
1298
-
1279
· BnonBebnem?
1279
-
1255
· Anak-idbu KhyanKhyanInachus, Apachnan
1255
-
1226
· YanassiIannas, Staan
1266
-
1209
· Auserre ApepiApepiApophis, Epaphus
1209
-
1195
· Asehre KhamudiKhamudiAssis, Archles
1195
-
1192
that would result to 6 heka-khasut for 106 years

Should the fragments of these names that also appear in the Lesser Hyksos Dynasty as kings be removed?

Djedkare ‘Anati            
[...]kare Babnum            
Senefer[...]re            
Men[...]re/Semen[...]re            
Djed[...]re            
Ink[...]            
’A[...]            
Apepi (1)

>SIP<
I would hang fire for now. Hepu and 'Anati appear to be duplicated and seem to be linked with the "16th Dynasty" at Per-Anum (Pelusium), though ruling before Bebnem/Babnum. Rohl's questioning of the Bnon/Bebnem link appears to be provisional due to his placing a question mark after the latter name.
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2007, 03:33:33 AM »

Epaphus[Auserre] Apepi
Name of sisterKeroessatA-rwDt/Ziwa
Name of daughterLibyaHerit

A brief comparison. There's little similarity between names, but both have a sister and daughter attested (though it's hardly incontravertible).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 11:56:18 PM by theelf29 » Logged
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2007, 12:03:00 AM »

Here are Kim Ryholt's dates for Dynasties 13-17: -


These dates may be useful to compare with the NC dates in the database and may have bearing on any future Rohlian SIP revision.
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2007, 12:54:42 AM »

Here are Kim Ryholt's dates for Dynasties 13-17: -


These dates may be useful to compare with the NC dates in the database and may have bearing on any future Rohlian SIP revision.
You mean to use the reign lengths?
Especially the dynasties 14 to 16 would be interesting, because what's in the database frankly is a mess. I wonder how I can make use of the data. Just use the dates as OC dates?
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theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2007, 05:19:47 PM »

I would be cautious about some of it (Ryholt's sequence of kings in Dynasty 13 is slightly different from that used by Rohl and his tentative identifications for the first two kings of the Greater Hyksos also differ) but the dates given for the other dynasties could well be used as OC dates (as, to my knowledge, this is the most comprehensive attempt at providing dates for many of the kings that I've seen).
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2007, 05:54:20 PM »

OK, here's a comparison of Ryholt's OC data and Rohl's NC data for the 13th Dynasty (same scale) :



I find it interesting that Ryholt moves the kings after Sobekhotep 7 to the end of Dynasty 16...


Btw, as you see, I can now create charts of dates that are not in the database... Smiley
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 11:22:05 PM by Cush » Logged
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2007, 07:26:05 PM »

Here are Ryholt's other SIP dynasties :

Ryholt's 14th Dynasty
Ryholt's 15th Dynasty


Ryholt's 16th Dynasty
Ryholt's 17th Dynasty

no dates are given for the Dynasty of Abydos
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 12:06:57 AM by Cush » Logged
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2007, 07:40:08 PM »



where the following matches would apply:
14th Dynasty=Lesser Hyksos
not in chartTheban Dynasty A
15th Dynasty=Greater Hyksos
16th Dynastynot in chart
17th Dynasty=Theban Dynasty B

OK, it's not really the chronology after Rohl any more, it's rather what's in my database based on Rohl ...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 12:03:59 AM by Cush » Logged
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2007, 01:04:41 AM »

wow, there seems to be a major bug here with this Wegaf dude and the first two Sobekhoteps...  Shocked
http://www.phouka.com/pharaoh/pharaoh/dynasties/dyn13/dyn13.html

Hmmm, both Ryholt and Rohl seem to be in the (minority) faction that switches Wegaf with Sobekhotep 2, strange....

I have updated some of the 13th Dynasty entries:
Thirteenth Dynasty of Egypt A13th Dynasty A
1632
-
1545
· Khutawyre WegafWegaf
1632
-
1630
· Sekhemkare Amenemhet-senebefAmenemhet-senebef
1630
-
1625
· 6 years of no king*
1625
-
1619
· Sekhemkare Amenemhat 5Amenemhat 5
1619
-
1616
· Sehetepibre
1616
-
1611
· Iufni
1611
-
1606
· Sankhibre Ameni Antef Amenemhet 6Sankhibre
1606
-
1601
· Smenkhkare NebnumSmenkhkare
1601
-
1596
· Sehetepibre Aamu-SaharnedjheryotefSehetepibreHotepibre
1596
-
1591
· Sewadjkare
1591
-
1586
· Nedjemire Nedjedib[...]reNedjedib[...]re
1586
-
1581
· Khaankhre Sobekhotep 1Sobekhotep 1
1581
-
1579
· Renseneb
1579
-
1578
· Awetibre HorHorAwibre
1578
-
1570
· Sedjef[...]kare Kaij Amenemhat 7Sedjef[...]kare
1570
-
1568
· Sekhemre-khutawy Sobekhotep 2Sobekhotep 2
1568
-
1563
· Userkare KhendjerKhendjer
1563
-
1558
· Smenkhkare MermeshaMermeshaImyra-mesha
1558
-
1553
· Sehetepkare InyotefInyotefAntef
1553
-
1548
· [...]ibrfe SetSeth
1548
-
1545
Thirteenth Dynasty of Egypt B13th Dynasty B
1545
-
1439
· Sekhemre-sewadtjawy Sobekhotep 3Sobekhotep 3
1545
-
1543
· Kasekhemre Neferhotep 1Neferhotep 1
ruled
1543
-
1533
· Sihathor
ruled 3 months in
1530
-
1529
· Khaneferre Sobekhotep 4Sobekhotep 4Khenepheres, Khenephres
ruled
1530
-
1508
· Khahotepre Sobekhotep 5Sobekhotep 5
1508
-
1500
· Wahibre IayibIayib
1500
-
1490
· Merneferre AyAy
1490
-
1467
· Merhotepre Sobekhotep 6Sobekhotep 6
1470
-
1469
· Sankhre[nesewadjtu]
1469
-
1467
· [...]webenre
1443
-
1439
· Mersekhemre InedIned
1467
-
1464
· Sewadjkare HoriHori
1464
-
1459
· Merkaure Sobekhotep 7Sobekhotep 7
1459
-
1457
· king of unknown name*
1457
-
1456
· king of unknown name*
1456
-
1455
· king of unknown name*
1455
-
1453
· king of unknown name*
1453
-
1450
· Djedneferre DudimoseDudimoseDedumesu, Tutimaos
1450
-
1446
· Sekhemre-sankhtawy Neferhotep 3Neferhotep 3-
· Sekhemre-seusertawy Sokbehotep 8Sokbehotep 8-
· Ibi
1446
-
1443
· Hor 2-
· Sewahenre SenebmuiSenebmui-
· Sekhenre-
· Merkheperre-
· Merkare [...]Merkare-
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 01:50:28 AM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2007, 06:40:31 PM »

Whoa! Interesting comparison!
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Cush
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Re: SIP + pre + post, the Hyksos period
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2007, 09:47:56 PM »

Whoa! Interesting comparison!

What about those Wegaf/Sobekhotep inconsistencies? I tend to follow the following interpretation rather than Rohl's or Ryholt 's and put Wegaf at the start of the 13th Dynasty A.

Quote from: Phouka
Some egyptologits believe that Sobekhotep I was the founder of the 13th Dynasty -- having been switched with Wegaf. However, he is clearly noted as pharaoh number 19 in thr Turin list, but some believe that other evidence makes it ovcious that he was interchanged with Wegaf, who then ruled about 40 years later. Sobekhotep I is the first male pharaoh to adopt the crocodile god, Sobek, into his name.
His name is also present on about a dozen monuments, plus a few mentioned in papyrii.
It is assumed that he is the son of Amenemhet IV of the 12th Dynasty. The queen Sobkenefru may have been his mother (as well as his aunt, as was common).
Sobekhotep I was followed by a pharaoh named Reniseneb, which means "The Name is Healthy", but nothing else is know about this king.
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