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Author Topic: FIP & Middle Kingdom  (Read 21455 times)
theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2007, 06:25:19 PM »

So you'll understand that I am also eager to put some of the Mesopotamian dynasties in here...  Grin

This sounds like a job for moi! Smiley
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theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2007, 06:46:33 PM »

This sounds like a job for moi! Smiley

A job to which I've already made a start.
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theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2007, 10:51:14 PM »

Dynasty VII
Netjerikare
Menkare
Neferkare (2)possibly mistake for Wadjkare
Neferkare Nebyson of Pepi 2
Djedkare Shemai
Neferkare Khendu
Merenhor
Neferkaminaka Sneferka?
Nikare (1)
Neferkare Tereru
Neferkahor

Of the kings of this "dynasty", only Neferkare Neby, Neferkamin/Sneferka, Neferkahor and possibly Neferkare 2 (if identified with Wadjkare) are attested outside the Abydos King List.




Dynasty VIII
Abydos King ListTurin CanonOther information
Neferkare PapisnebNeferkare Sheri (i.e. "the younger")
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka AnuNeferkamin
QakareIbipyramid (Saqqara) and graffiti (Nubia)
NeferkaureHor Xai[...]
NeferkauhorKhwiwihepu, Hor Netjerbau. Koptos decrees
Neferirkare




In addition, the following attested kings do not appear on any royal canon: -
  • Sekhemkare
  • Wadjkare (Hor Demedjebtaui)
  • *
  • Iti
  • **
  • Imhotep
  • ***
  • Hotep
  • Khui
  • ****
  • Isu
  • *****
  • Iytenu

*As previously stated, Wadjkare may be one and the same as Neferkare 2 (Dynasty 7). Another theory is that Wadjkare and Demedjebtaui are two separate rulers, with Wadjkare being Demedjebtaui's predecessor, associating the pair with Dynasty 9.
**Iti is mentioned in an inscription at Wadi Hammamat. The inscription tells of one Nikau-Ptah, sent to procure materials for the building of the pyramid "Bau-Iti" (Power of Iti).
***Mentioned on an inscription at Wadi Hammamat, Imhotep is supposed to have raised an expedition involving 2500 people.
****Khui ruled in central Egypt and is believed to have built a "monumental tomb" at Dara.
*****Isu is mentioned in graffiti.

There don't seem to be too many dates flying around for any of this motley crew. Only Neferkare Neby, Qakare Ibi and perhaps Khui seem to have undertaken any significant building work. As such, the whole group are usually squeezed into a 25-35 year period. Rohl, sensibly in my opinion, implies a longer span, perhaps 50 years or more, between the end of Nitokerty's reign (2061) and some time during or after 2018 and the rise of Dynasty(ies?) 9(/10).
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Cush
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 01:05:58 AM »

I will see what other sources I can find. And between Legend and Lost Testament Rohl seems to have pushed back early dynasties by 30 to 40 years.

But I'll be going to bed now... (and tomorrow I will only have little time to be here, but on Friday I am off work)  Wink
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 01:19:52 AM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2007, 01:32:56 AM »

I'd noticed some amendments in Rohl's chronology when I was comparing the dates in TLT with the dates you previously had on the database. Tbh, I doubt Rohl has lent the FIP a great deal of thought over the past few years as his latest project has concentrated more on the SIP. Whether he (or any of his colleagues) will publish anything at a later date on the matter remains to be seen. As for myself, I can only hope more evidence from this enigmatic period awaits discovery under the timeless sands of the Black Land (not bad for this time of night/morning Grin)

Good night. I have a few days off work so I'll try to compile some lists of the various missing SIP dynasties. Again, I'm not confident of assigning any absolute dates, though "Dyn. 14" (Nehesy to, presumably, Shemau/Greater Hyksos) will be pretty easy to give an approximate date to. "Dyn. 16" and earlier "Dyn. 17" may be more difficult. I shall have to scour what's available for any synchronisms.
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theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2007, 05:02:05 PM »

Dynasty VII
Netjerikare
Menkare
Neferkare (2)possibly mistake for Wadjkare
Neferkare Nebyson of Pepi 2
Djedkare Shemai
Neferkare Khendu
Merenhor
Neferkaminaka Sneferka?
Nikare (1)
Neferkare Tereru
Neferkahor

Of the kings of this "dynasty", only Neferkare Neby, Neferkamin/Sneferka, Neferkahor and possibly Neferkare 2 (if identified with Wadjkare) are attested outside the Abydos King List.




Dynasty VIII
Abydos King ListTurin CanonOther information
Neferkare PapisnebNeferkare Sheri (i.e. "the younger")
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka AnuNeferkamin
QakareIbipyramid (Saqqara) and graffiti (Nubia)
NeferkaureHor Xai[...]
NeferkauhorKhwiwihepu, Hor Netjerbau. Koptos decrees
Neferirkare




In addition, the following attested kings do not appear on any royal canon: -
  • Sekhemkare
  • Wadjkare (Hor Demedjebtaui)
  • *
  • Iti
  • **
  • Imhotep
  • ***
  • Hotep
  • Khui
  • ****
  • Isu
  • *****
  • Iytenu

*As previously stated, Wadjkare may be one and the same as Neferkare 2 (Dynasty 7). Another theory is that Wadjkare and Demedjebtaui are two separate rulers, with Wadjkare being Demedjebtaui's predecessor, associating the pair with Dynasty 9.
**Iti is mentioned in an inscription at Wadi Hammamat. The inscription tells of one Nikau-Ptah, sent to procure materials for the building of the pyramid "Bau-Iti" (Power of Iti).
***Mentioned on an inscription at Wadi Hammamat, Imhotep is supposed to have raised an expedition involving 2500 people.
****Khui ruled in central Egypt and is believed to have built a "monumental tomb" at Dara.
*****Isu is mentioned in graffiti.

There don't seem to be too many dates flying around for any of this motley crew. Only Neferkare Neby, Qakare Ibi and perhaps Khui seem to have undertaken any significant building work. As such, the whole group are usually squeezed into a 25-35 year period. Rohl, sensibly in my opinion, implies a longer span, perhaps 50 years or more, between the end of Nitokerty's reign (2061) and some time during or after 2018 and the rise of Dynasty(ies?) 9(/10).
My reconstruction of this period would be somewhere along these lines: -

  • Dynasty 7 would run from 2061 to around 2045 at Memphis, followed by the Dynasty 8 kings from the list. Sekhemkare and Iytenu succeed them at Mennefer. Dynasty 8's dates are given below.
  • Wadjkare and Demedjebtaui would preceed Khety 1 and Dynasty 9/10. Dates given below.
  • The other unplaced kings, due to their activities in the Wadi Hammamat, are seen as predecessors of Dynasty 11, i.e. local rulers in the area of Waset.

Dynasty VII
Netjerikarec.2061-2060
Menkarec.2060-2059
Neferkare (2)c.2059-2057
Neferkare Nebyc.2057-2055
Djedkare Shemaic.2055-2054
Neferkare Khenduc.2054-2053
Merenhorc.2053-2052
Neferkaminc.2052-2050
Nikare (1)c.2050-2049
Neferkare Tereruc.2049-2048
Neferkahorc.2048-2045

Dynasty VIII
Neferkare Papisnebc.2045-2041
Neferkamin Anu/Sneferka Anuc.2041-2039
Qakare Ibic.2039-2029
Neferkaurec.2029-2028
Neferkauhor Khwiwihepuc.2028-2027
Neferirkarec.2027-2026
Sekhemkarec.2026-2022
Iytenuc.2022-2018

"Proto-Dynasty IX"
Wadjkarec.2026-2022
Hor Demedjebtauic.2022-2018
Meryibre Khety 12018-1973

"Proto-Dynasty XI"
Itic.2015-2005
Imhotepc.2005-1995
Hotepc.1995-1990
Khui (Iku?)c.1990-1980
Intefc.1980-1974

Dates are arbitrary, but could be expanded.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 05:45:53 PM by theelf29 » Logged
theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 05:45:22 PM »

PrenomenNomenNC Dates
[Meryibre?]Khety I2018-1973
[lost]1973-1968
Neferkare[unknown]1968-1953
[unknown]Khety II1953-1943
[unknown]Senen[...]1943-1938
[lost]1938-1933
Mery[hathor?]Khety III1933-1925
[unknown]Shed[...]1925-1919
[unknown]H[...]1919-1914
[lost?]1914-1904
[lost]1904-1899
[lost]1899-1892
[lost]1892-1886
[lost]1886-1882
[lost]1882-1876
NebkaureKhety IV1876-1847
Merykare[unknown]1847-1837
[lost]1837-1833
If one wishes to divide 9 and 10 into separate dynasties, perhaps the death of the Hierakopolitan nomarch Ankhtifi (reigned c.1930-1910) and the resultant expansionist policy of Intef 2 of Thebes could provide just such a juncture. As such: -

Dynasty 9[/b][b]
Wadjkarec.2026-2022
Demedjebtauic.2022-2018
[Meryibre?]Khety I2018-1973
[lost]1973-1968
Neferkare[unknown]1968-1953
[unknown]Khety II1953-1943
[unknown]Senen[...]1943-1938
[lost]1938-1933
Mery[hathor?]Khety III1933-1925
[unknown]Shed[...]1925-1919
[unknown]H[...]1919-1914
Dynasty 10
[lost?]1914-1904
[lost]1904-1899
[lost]1899-1892
[lost]1892-1886
[lost]1886-1882
[lost]1882-1876
NebkaureKhety IV1876-1847
Merykare[unknown]1847-1837
[lost]1837-1833
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Cush
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 06:03:08 PM »

Wow.  Grin
I will insert the changes/additions to the database when I get home...
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Cush
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 09:58:17 PM »

OK, >here we go<...

Now this is a strange looking chart  Shocked

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theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2007, 10:12:42 PM »

lol! That's a bit of a headache, but it's nice to see it all fitting together (relatively Grin) plausably.
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 10:21:30 PM »

But one has to wonder why the 9th and 10th Dynasties are considered part of the FIP while the 11th Dynasties are considered part of the Middle Kingdom, although they were practically contemporary.

>overview chart<
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 10:36:28 PM by Cush » Logged
theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2007, 11:06:12 PM »

But one has to wonder why the 9th and 10th Dynasties are considered part of the FIP while the 11th Dynasties are considered part of the Middle Kingdom, although they were practically contemporary.
I believe the prevailing definition of the "Middle Kingdom" starts with the reunification. The rest of the 11th Dynasty is sometimes crowbarred into the MK as a matter of convenience, though I've seen people separate the 11th into an A (in the Thebaid/Upper Egypt) and B (post-reunifiaction).
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Cush
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2007, 11:13:15 PM »

..., though I've seen people separate the 11th into an A (in the Thebaid/Upper Egypt) and B (post-reunifiaction).
You have? Grin
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theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2007, 11:16:23 PM »

... Isu is mentioned in graffiti...

... but not by me. I seem to have left Isu out. However, due to a dearth of information, I'm not sure quite where to place him. I'm leaning towards Dynasty 8 or proto-11 (if the latter is the case, he is perhaps an ephemerally-reigning brother of Intef the Elder).
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theelf29
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Re: FIP & Middle Kingdom
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2007, 11:18:36 PM »

..., though I've seen people separate the 11th into an A (in the Thebaid/Upper Egypt) and B (post-reunifiaction).
You have? Grin
Whoever came up with that division did a great service to Egyptology! Wink
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